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Elon Musk’s Tunnel Plan Isn’t as Crazy as SpaceX or Tesla
- samstave 9y agoElon should use the nuclear powered tunnel boring machines patented in the 60s to dril and melt rock-wall tunnels for the hyperloop.
- pavel_lishin 9y agoI have a feeling residents would throw a complete shit-fit if someone proposed something like that. At best, you'd have clickbait headlines like "MUSK PROPOSES NUKING HIS WAY THROUGH YOUR BASEMENT".
- MrBuddyCasino 9y agoI'd pay top dollar to watch this.
- tyingq 9y agoNUMBY?
- hanklazard 9y agoHe discussed this concern here: https://youtu.be/hpDHwfXbpfg?t=9m15s https://youtu.be/hpDHwfXbpfg?t=9m15s It sounds like he's less concerned about disturbing the people above, as it's apparently not an issue at certain depths (I am not an engineer). Seems like the existing underground infrastructure might be a bigger problem.
- pavel_lishin 9y agoThe concern I'm alluding to is a largely made up marketing one - putting nuclear-powered anything under people's homes is bound to be misunderstood in the worst possible way.
- sschueller 9y agoMany US cities need to solve their short distance public transportation problem first. I don't see how adding another long distance transport solves anything. How does this help people stuck in LA traffic all day?
- pavel_lishin 9y agoThis also doesn't help people trying to lose weight, or the people who can't remember where they put their keys - but that's not who this is aimed at.
- ubernostrum 9y agobut that's not who this is aimed at I think a lot of legitimate criticism of HN's darlings starts with which markets and demographics they aim at, and whose problems they deem worthy of solving.
- simonh 9y agoIt's not about worthiness, it's about having a solution or not. If Musk has a solution for long distance but doesn't have one for commuters, should he not pursue the long distance solution because reasons? That seems absurd.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- raleighm 9y agoQuestion is what municipalities should do, given that each expenditure has opportunity costs. I though the OP's point was about municipalities' priorities.
- simonh 9y agoThe Post I replied to explicitly called out HN darlings. As for the OP, are there no long distance transport problems worth solving? Really? It's just a daft and pointlessly negative comment, a variation on lazy whataboutism.
- miguelrochefort 9y agoOne could even say it's boring.
- tyingq 9y agoThe headline seems to be focused just on the drilling/tunnel part. Whether a hyperloop is as crazy as SpaceX or Tesla doesn't seem to be covered.
- oceanswave 9y agoCreating tunnels in an efficient manner is orthogonal to concepts such as hyperloop
- tyingq 9y agoI guess, but if you read the first two paragraphs, the purpose of the tunnel is a hyperloop. My comment was an exploration of the title "...Tunnel Plan Isn't as Crazy..." Then the article didn't seem to explore any of the crazy aspects of the purpose of the tunnel. Talking about the "craziness" of digging the tunnel separate from the purpose seemed...odd. Edit: Appears I may also be confused as to which "Tunnel Plan" in the article title maps to which "tunnel plan" the article is talking about.
- kin 9y agoThis isn't a hyperloop. It's just a new alternative transit system to bypass LA traffic
- skykooler 9y agoBypassing LA traffic by going from New York to Washington D.C.
- apsec112 9y ago[deleted]
- robertfw 9y agoThe Boring Company has nothing to do with Vactrains
- tyingq 9y agoThe first two paragraphs of the article ties them together. I'll admit you may be right, but the confusion here is driven by the article.
- olegkikin 9y agoYou are confusing the vactrain (hyperloop) project with the underground tunnel car-on-sled project. They are separate things.
- mchafkin 9y agomy two cents on this is that even if the hyperloop doesn't pan out all, the tunnel project could still be a big deal. If you stick regular state of the art high speed trains in musk's hypothetical NY-DC tunnel, that would be worthwhile.
- LurkingPresence 9y agoWouldn't it be smarter to start with a smaller project? Like maybe do the Chicago airport project before tearing up the east coast for a super tunnel. That seemed to work for Space X (start small, iterate).
- strictnein 9y agoOr to start someplace that is much easier to develop, like in Texas. I understand the economics might not be as favorable, but there is a ton of truck traffic going N/S in TX that would be thrilled to skip over (or, I guess under) the major population centers.
- stcredzero 9y agoMaking such tunnels electric vehicle only would make them much more economical to build. Guess who is planning electric trucks?
- trendia 9y agoIf you're investing your own money, then you'd definitely want to test it out so that you can ensure that 1) it's easy to build and 2) people are willing to pay to use the tunnel. However, if you want the government to subsidize it / provide tax breaks, then you want to be able to go to politicians in every state and show them how this tunnel is going to bring jobs and money. You pull up a big map and say, "This is going to go from San Francisco to New York, and if you are willing to help we'll make sure it goes right through your state!" That's the political game that you play. (It also makes it politically unfeasible to shut down later. See: military contractors in every state)
- eduren 9y ago"I've sold hyperloops to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
- dammitcoetzee 9y agoNo. It would be boring.
- ProblemFactory 9y agoIs technology really the slow and expensive part of boring tunnels? To me it has always seemed that tunnels are expensive because: * Planning the traffic impact and how it interacts with other transport lanes, all the above-ground building work to make the tunnel useful, * Emergency ventilation and escape routes, and all other infrastructure that goes into the hole, * Avoiding any building foundation piles, unmapped tunnels, pipes and cables, re-planning and fixing them if you do hit them, * In Europe at least, archeological surveys.
- nusq 9y agoI can't upvote your comment enough and I would add geology to that list.
- losteric 9y ago#2 and 3 certainly sound like technology problems; eg #3 - would underground probes, small tunnelers, help survey the territory between point A and B?
- jws 9y agoIt may be time to legislate the concept of "tunnel space". This would be similar to air space. In the US a property owner doesn't control the air above their land (subject to details). Maybe Congress should declare the Earth below say 100' as not controlled by the land owner and allocated by some new agency, say the Federal Crust Administration. Remove all of this from state, county, and municipal jurisdiction. Centralize the rules. Local government will still be controlling the portals where it must surface and interact with the surface world. This will have to merge with mineral rights, but the intersection of mass transit and mining is minimal.
- kbenson 9y agoEvery mining company will lobby against that. It's probably easier to do it with easements and eminent domain.
- bpodgursky 9y ago
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- btilly 9y agoIt is worth noting that everything that Elon is doing here is part of his goal of colonizing Mars. One of the challenges will be building out underground habitats, and establishing mining for critical resources. Gaining experience with how to do that efficiently here on Earth will make it easier to set it up on Mars. Furthermore when you start colonizing Mars, you're going to want high speed transport between locations. Rockets will work, but are wasteful. Airplanes don't work with thin atmosphere. But a hyperloop will. So let's learn how to bore hyperloops cheaply and efficiently. Prove out the technology, make it repeatable. Then when SpaceX is ready to take us to Mars, we arrive with key pieces of technology that we'll need to colonize it. The scope of his vision is breathtaking.
- fhood 9y agoI love how transparent it makes his motives.
- theseatoms 9y agoAre you sure it's not just good marketing?
- sqeaky 9y agoCan't it be both? Honesty has phenomenal draw in marketing when the recipient agrees with the message. Even if one's disagrees, the product is harder to attack when everyone around it is honest.
- sna1l 9y agoI feel like this is one of Musk's greatest strengths. His bread and butter is taking slow moving industries (see: rockets and cars) and coming in with smart people with a framework to succeed. As a marketing ploy, he then sells his grand vision (going to Mars, all self driving cars). I don't mean to say that he won't succeed in these grand visions; I think he will, but fundamentally his success is based on taking outdated, slow moving industries and taking them to the next level.
- ferongr 9y agoIf you're gonna dig some tunnels, a train on rails is a way more efficient way to move people around.
- vannevar 9y ago"...digging sure sounds easier than building a rocket that lands vertically." It isn't. Just ask the builders of the Chunnel. It's only 31 miles long and went 80% over budget and 20% behind schedule. A tunnel from New York to DC would be nearly 10 times as long and run under some of the most densely populated land in the country. Rockets and electric cars are trivial by comparison.
- hanklazard 9y agoI posted this in response to a comment below, but I think this interview clip provides a great overview of the technology that Musk is proposing, as well as answers to some common questions/concerns about the challenges this tunneling might create. https://youtu.be/hpDHwfXbpfg?t=1m17s https://youtu.be/hpDHwfXbpfg?t=1m17s edit: added the word "interview"
- ouid 9y agowhen I first saw the tunnel plan, it was presented as a service-for-billionaires single use subway system for cars. That's not what it is at all. It's a company that makes tunnels. Ultimately, they will be used for whatever infrastructure needs tunnels to work.
- gkanapathy 9y agohttps://urbanize.la/post/los-angeles-should-ignore-elon-musk-and-build-subway-tunnels-relieve-traffic https://urbanize.la/post/los-angeles-should-ignore-elon-musk...
- baron816 9y agoI have a feeling that Musk loves being mocked for this. Wouldn't you love it if you pitched a crazy idea for which everyone made fun of you for, and then you delivered?
- sixQuarks 9y agoI was one of those people that was mocking him at one point... back when he started SpaceX. I honestly thought this guy was an idiot to be throwing his money away like this. Once I realized I might be wrong about him, I started following him closely, watching all his interviews, and then seeing one success after another. Nowadays, I'm flabbergasted by people that would mock his ideas when he's proven over and over again that his visions have a stubborn way of becoming reality, one way or another (sometimes late). Can he stumble and be totally wrong and fail? Of course, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, but to mock him is just being plain ignorant.
- stcredzero 9y agoproven over and over again that his visions have a stubborn way of becoming reality This is the power of 1st principles reasoning. The power of physics becomes your power!
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Diederich 9y agoFor example: 1. A new, successful car company. 2. A new, successful space launch company.
- stcredzero 9y agoSomething just occurred to me: Is the levitating vac train concept just a feint? The technology developed for building electric semi trucks would also be useful for building highly streamlined electric trains. With automated piloting, the difference between the two would be blurred! Is Elon aiming to become the railroad tycoon of the 21st century? I don't think air resistance is the largest cause of expense in transportation. Am I wrong here? How much does it cost to overcome air resistance per mile in trains and trucks?
- surrealize 9y ago> I don't think air resistance is the largest cause of expense in transportation. If you want to go fast (the plan for the hyperloop) then air resistance becomes a significant cost. The power it takes to overcome aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of velocity. I imagine the hyperloop design where cars are independent makes drag costs worse compared to trains (compared at the same speed).
- stcredzero 9y agoI imagine the hyperloop design where cars are independent makes drag costs worse compared to trains (compared at the same speed). However, autopilot cars don't have to operate independently over long distances, in ways that specifically reduce air resistance!
- surrealize 9y agoPresumably you mean they could follow one another very closely. If they're traveling at several hundred mph, that doesn't give following vehicles much time to react if there's a problem with a leading vehicle.
- stcredzero 9y agoYou basically have the same problem with high speed trains, or even ordinary trains. It's just that all of the "control" is entirely passive. If your drive and control systems can be made as reliable as the passive systems linking train cars, then that should meet the same level of safety. Also, have you been on the highway during rush hour? There's not that much buffer against a pileup, in a system much more prone to failure!
- skanga 9y agoToo many unknown unknowns here. When mankind first started to burn fossil fuels nobody anticipated that it would impact climate on a planetary scale. This is an idea that needs much more study before we rush into it.