10 ms·

Stylo shipping in Firefox Nightly

305 points by Leynos 9y ago

H4CK3RM4N 9y ago
I really like this idea of switching over to servo bit by bit. It makes me happy that there might be a real WebKit alternative again.
- NiLSPACE 9y ago
  I'd argue that Gecko is a real WebKit alternative. It has improved quite dramatically lately, have you tried Firefox Nightly?
  - wodenokoto 9y ago
    The problem with in its current state as a WebKit alternative is that it lacks stable api. We don't see any gecko based apps like we see WebKit based apps (electron, etc) because gecko is so tightly developed around Firefox.
    - NiLSPACE 9y ago
      True, Gecko lacks a real API for embedding. Servo on the other hand has embedding in mind from the start. There is someone from the Servo team working on it: https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - FreakyT 9y ago
      I remember way before Electron there was XULRunner, and there were a few ridiculously bloated non-Mozilla apps that were based on it. Like Songbird[1] -- anyone remember that? I suppose the idea was largely ahead of its time; in 2006 computers just didn't have enough RAM/CPU to get away with running a full web browser stack for every app like we (sort of) can today. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software)
      - wodenokoto 9y ago
        Back then I was a big fan of the concept and I really enjoyed songbird. I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it chromeless with some expanded privileges (or near chromeless) is a great approach for cross-platform apps, sadly it doesn't seem like anyone is working seriously on such an approach.
        StavrosK 9y ago
        > I still think [it] is a great approach for cross-platform apps You think so? I find that running a whole second OS for every process is hugely bloated and slow, and that we can do much, much better when there are already very good languages that run cross-platformly, they just need bindings to a good cross-platform UI toolkit. Unfortunately, nothing looks as good on OS X as Cocoa does.
        wodenokoto 9y ago
        Yes. Yes I do. Look at R studio. Wonderful IDE, runs as a safari app. Having a whole extra browser and a node backend running for each app seems a waste, but using the browser that is already running as a runtime environment seems much saner. I do most of my work in the browser, I wouldn't mind if some of that had better integrated UI. I also wouldn't mind writing small, easy to produce apps that will work across systems.
        StavrosK 9y ago
        I'm not saying programs written in it aren't useful or doable, I just don't think it's a great approach. I think it's a last-resort approach, because there just isn't a better cross-platform toolkit available.
        maxsilver 9y ago
        > I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it I think the thing that kills that approach is the default browser, which on Windows is IE 12 (Edge). Edge isn't actually that bad to work with these days. But almost no web developers will use that when they could ship Chromium / Electron just as easily and get the exact same browser on all three platforms. Even Microsoft's own teams will sometimes make that choice (VS Code using Electron.js and not Edge, for example)
    - krzyk 9y ago
      That's good. I don't see a point in having an app that embeds a browser to show an app. It's like having those silly Android apps that are just a wrapper around a web version of the service. If I want to use a web version I can do it using a browser of my choosing not the one developers want.
      - charrondev 9y ago
        The browser rendering environment is only half of electron. Electron (and nw.js) provide a node.js / browser hybrid. You can use native node-modules, instead of browser-based workarounds and you have the same filesystem access a native application would have. You also have hooks into platform specific menu/dock/notifications.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    It is, it's just hard to track what's going on in a way. The browser saw new ideas, and rollbacks (hello ? IIRC). There's the XUL layers, Electrolysis, the actual engine. I have to admit If you clean your mind from memories of high latency Firefox GUI, it's now near chrome-fast on the UX side. Memory use is adequate if not #1. Tabs are well handled too.
- jayflux 9y ago
  "again" ? Was there a real alternative to WebKit in the embedded browser space before? (genuine question)
- chairmanwow 9y ago
  I'm new to frontend in general and wondering if I could trouble you for some context. Why is Firefox's CSS styling engine not already "in" the browser? To me it seems like Stylo is just a parallelized replacement for the old system, Servo. What am I missing here? Also, why are you celebrating an alternative for WebKit? Isn't it already supported by most major browsers?
  - tolien 9y ago
    > Why is Firefox's CSS styling engine not already "in" the browser? It is, Firefox can do CSS and styles just now. Stylo is a replacement for that. > To me it seems like Stylo is just a parallelized replacement for the old system, Servo. What am I missing here? Servo isn’t the old system. Servo is a research project to build a layout engine (analogous to Gecko which Firefox currently uses) in Rust, of which Stylo is a part. > Also, why are you celebrating an alternative for WebKit? Isn't it already supported by most major browsers? It sounds like you’re confused about what WebKit is. WebKit and its forks are used by a number of browsers (Chrome, Safari etc.). EdgeHTML, Gecko and WebKit are, broadly speaking, competitors which attempt to implement certain standards and frequently disagree about how to do so. It’s important that there be alternatives to WebKit with significant market share because otherwise how WebKit implements a feature becomes the de facto reference implementation.
    - chairmanwow 9y ago
      Thanks to you (and all the other commenters) for the detailed answers! I learned a lot!
  - IamCarbonMan 9y ago
    Servo is a complete (although WIP) browser engine in Rust. Stylo is a project to plug the style parts of Servo into Firefox, which currently uses the Gecko browser engine. This is part of Mozilla's ongoing efforts to modernize Firefox by gradually rewriting it in Rust. WebKit is technically only used by Safari. Chrome uses a WebKit fork called Blink, and MS Edge uses its own engine called Chakra. I assume the above commenter was expressing relief that someone besides Google is making a fast, modern web browser these days.
- mintplant 9y ago
  Servo's WebRender is also in the Firefox tree. I've seen some crazy benchmarks using it. It's not ready to be enabled widely yet, though.
  - Manishearth 9y ago
    Note that the current webrender pref on nightly will be slower, since it runs stuff through webrender and then the regular renderer. They're focusing on getting it feature complete first, after which that pref will probably be switched over to be pure webrender.
NiLSPACE 9y ago
There is also a discussion on the Rust reddit about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_tr...
wodenokoto 9y ago
Pretty cool that changing layout engine doesn't require a restart!
- NiLSPACE 9y ago
  It's not the entire layout engine that changes. They only switch to the CSS Style system of Servo: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/dknyjpe/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_tr... It's still pretty cool though :)
- cornedor 9y ago
  Wow, I restarted my browser because I assumed it was necessary.
diegoperini 9y ago
The proposed flag in about:config exists in Firefox Developer Edition too. I tried to enable it, then loaded some pages. There seems to be no distinction in visuals. Did it work seamlessly or is it currently NOP?
- NiLSPACE 9y ago
  The flag exists in Firefox Developer Edition but it doesn't do anything yet. You have to be on Nightly for it to have an actual effect: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/dko3ko1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_tr...
- Manishearth 9y ago
  You can check in about:support to see if it's actually enabled. It won't be for dev edition; dev edition didn't build it by default. about:config isn't user-facing so it will show prefs that do nothing on the current release channel or build.
the8472 9y ago
You can also try webrender, but it still has more issues than stylo in my experience. It gobbles up a lot of gfx memory for starters, which can actually slow things down if you don't have enough. But that's a known issue. gfx.webrender.enabled = true (restart required)
- hansjorg 9y ago
  According to the Reddit thread, enabling this will run both webrender and the regular renderer for now, so it will be both slower and more memory intensive.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
blauditore 9y ago
I cannot find the flag in about:config - my version is "56.0a1 (2017-07-23) (64-bit)", so it should be in there, no?
- ronjouch 9y ago
  I have the flag in my about:config with build `56.0a1 (2017-07-25) (64-bit)` under Linux. You're SO two days ago! Update your Nightly :)
  - blauditore 9y ago
    Hmm, I got it through `ppa:ubuntu-mozilla-daily/ppa` on Ubuntu, so this is generally a couple days behind? Did you download it manually?
    - ronjouch 9y ago
      Yes, I like to run the official self-updating build from https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/latest-mozilla-central/ https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/latest-mozilla-c... , because it's the official build (which is appreciated when reporting bugs) and always fresh. - You could switch to that too (I run it even on my job Ubuntu machine, never saw any benefit to using the official Ubuntu PPA apart from proper packaging, which I don't care about, this Firefox lives in /opt/firefox and that's okay with me, and getting updates are a matter of hitting Help -> About, easy). - Or just wait a few days for the PPA to serve a fresher build. EDIT forget about this and read bzbarsky's answer above. Thanks, Boris :)
    - bzbarsky 9y ago
      It's entirely possible that Ubuntu is not compiling in stylo at all. In fact it's likely: Firefox nightlies on Linux have been shipping stylo (preffed off) for close to three weeks, so if a two-day-old Ubuntu build doesn't have it, chances are neither will a newer one until they change their build configuration to use --enable-stylo.
    - eridius 9y ago
      Looks like that disables Servo at build time. Someone on Reddit had the same problem - https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/6p9t83/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/dknv93q/?context=4 https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/6p9t83/psa_you_can...
k__ 9y ago
Very cool. What parts of Servo are already in Firefox? What is missing? Is there a list of what will get into Firefox over time?
- NiLSPACE 9y ago
  There is a wiki page about Project Quantum: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Quantum https://wiki.mozilla.org/Quantum Currently Quantum CSS (Stylo) and Quantum Render (Webrender) are both in Firefox Nightly, but they are unstable and can cause really bad performance, especially Quantum Render. They won't be done until at least Firefox 57 and some most likely later. Quantum Compositor is in Release already I believe. It's the out of process compositor for Firefox. Changes from Quantum Flow are continuing to be implemented into Nightly and later on Beta. I haven't ready much about the progress around Quantum DOM, and I have no idea for which release it is targeted.
  - k__ 9y ago
    Do I get this right. Servo is the experimental browser (engine?)? Quantum is the project that ports parts of Servo to Firefox over time?
    - sp332 9y ago
      Right. Servo is an engine that will be embeddable into apps that need to render HTML, not just browsers.
      - k__ 9y ago
        Ah, so like the omni-present webkit view?
        sp332 9y ago
        Yeah, exactly. It doesn't include a JS engine so for now it uses SpiderMonkey, but eventually you should be able to plug others in.
    - 9y ago
Jayakumark 9y ago
When will this be incorporated in Firefox Mainstream release ?
- steveklabnik 9y ago
  The target, IIRC, is 57.
  - Jayakumark 9y ago
    Cool, and when will servo go mainstream ?
- metajack 9y ago
  It should go out in Firefox 57 which is scheduled for November 14.
rajnathani 9y ago
Does anyone have any links to benchmarks?

305 points by Leynos 9y ago

I really like this idea of switching over to servo bit by bit. It makes me happy that there might be a real WebKit alternative again.

NiLSPACE 9y ago
I'd argue that Gecko is a real WebKit alternative. It has improved quite dramatically lately, have you tried Firefox Nightly?
- wodenokoto 9y ago
  The problem with in its current state as a WebKit alternative is that it lacks stable api. We don't see any gecko based apps like we see WebKit based apps (electron, etc) because gecko is so tightly developed around Firefox.
  - NiLSPACE 9y ago
    True, Gecko lacks a real API for embedding. Servo on the other hand has embedding in mind from the start. There is someone from the Servo team working on it: https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - FreakyT 9y ago
    I remember way before Electron there was XULRunner, and there were a few ridiculously bloated non-Mozilla apps that were based on it. Like Songbird[1] -- anyone remember that? I suppose the idea was largely ahead of its time; in 2006 computers just didn't have enough RAM/CPU to get away with running a full web browser stack for every app like we (sort of) can today. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software)
    - wodenokoto 9y ago
      Back then I was a big fan of the concept and I really enjoyed songbird. I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it chromeless with some expanded privileges (or near chromeless) is a great approach for cross-platform apps, sadly it doesn't seem like anyone is working seriously on such an approach.
      - StavrosK 9y ago
        > I still think [it] is a great approach for cross-platform apps You think so? I find that running a whole second OS for every process is hugely bloated and slow, and that we can do much, much better when there are already very good languages that run cross-platformly, they just need bindings to a good cross-platform UI toolkit. Unfortunately, nothing looks as good on OS X as Cocoa does.
        wodenokoto 9y ago
        Yes. Yes I do. Look at R studio. Wonderful IDE, runs as a safari app. Having a whole extra browser and a node backend running for each app seems a waste, but using the browser that is already running as a runtime environment seems much saner. I do most of my work in the browser, I wouldn't mind if some of that had better integrated UI. I also wouldn't mind writing small, easy to produce apps that will work across systems.
        StavrosK 9y ago
        I'm not saying programs written in it aren't useful or doable, I just don't think it's a great approach. I think it's a last-resort approach, because there just isn't a better cross-platform toolkit available.
      - maxsilver 9y ago
        > I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it I think the thing that kills that approach is the default browser, which on Windows is IE 12 (Edge). Edge isn't actually that bad to work with these days. But almost no web developers will use that when they could ship Chromium / Electron just as easily and get the exact same browser on all three platforms. Even Microsoft's own teams will sometimes make that choice (VS Code using Electron.js and not Edge, for example)
  - krzyk 9y ago
    That's good. I don't see a point in having an app that embeds a browser to show an app. It's like having those silly Android apps that are just a wrapper around a web version of the service. If I want to use a web version I can do it using a browser of my choosing not the one developers want.
    - charrondev 9y ago
      The browser rendering environment is only half of electron. Electron (and nw.js) provide a node.js / browser hybrid. You can use native node-modules, instead of browser-based workarounds and you have the same filesystem access a native application would have. You also have hooks into platform specific menu/dock/notifications.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  It is, it's just hard to track what's going on in a way. The browser saw new ideas, and rollbacks (hello ? IIRC). There's the XUL layers, Electrolysis, the actual engine. I have to admit If you clean your mind from memories of high latency Firefox GUI, it's now near chrome-fast on the UX side. Memory use is adequate if not #1. Tabs are well handled too.
jayflux 9y ago
"again" ? Was there a real alternative to WebKit in the embedded browser space before? (genuine question)
chairmanwow 9y ago
I'm new to frontend in general and wondering if I could trouble you for some context. Why is Firefox's CSS styling engine not already "in" the browser? To me it seems like Stylo is just a parallelized replacement for the old system, Servo. What am I missing here? Also, why are you celebrating an alternative for WebKit? Isn't it already supported by most major browsers?
- tolien 9y ago
  > Why is Firefox's CSS styling engine not already "in" the browser? It is, Firefox can do CSS and styles just now. Stylo is a replacement for that. > To me it seems like Stylo is just a parallelized replacement for the old system, Servo. What am I missing here? Servo isn’t the old system. Servo is a research project to build a layout engine (analogous to Gecko which Firefox currently uses) in Rust, of which Stylo is a part. > Also, why are you celebrating an alternative for WebKit? Isn't it already supported by most major browsers? It sounds like you’re confused about what WebKit is. WebKit and its forks are used by a number of browsers (Chrome, Safari etc.). EdgeHTML, Gecko and WebKit are, broadly speaking, competitors which attempt to implement certain standards and frequently disagree about how to do so. It’s important that there be alternatives to WebKit with significant market share because otherwise how WebKit implements a feature becomes the de facto reference implementation.
  - chairmanwow 9y ago
    Thanks to you (and all the other commenters) for the detailed answers! I learned a lot!
- IamCarbonMan 9y ago
  Servo is a complete (although WIP) browser engine in Rust. Stylo is a project to plug the style parts of Servo into Firefox, which currently uses the Gecko browser engine. This is part of Mozilla's ongoing efforts to modernize Firefox by gradually rewriting it in Rust. WebKit is technically only used by Safari. Chrome uses a WebKit fork called Blink, and MS Edge uses its own engine called Chakra. I assume the above commenter was expressing relief that someone besides Google is making a fast, modern web browser these days.
mintplant 9y ago
Servo's WebRender is also in the Firefox tree. I've seen some crazy benchmarks using it. It's not ready to be enabled widely yet, though.
- Manishearth 9y ago
  Note that the current webrender pref on nightly will be slower, since it runs stuff through webrender and then the regular renderer. They're focusing on getting it feature complete first, after which that pref will probably be switched over to be pure webrender.

NiLSPACE 9y ago

There is also a discussion on the Rust reddit about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_tr...

wodenokoto 9y ago

Pretty cool that changing layout engine doesn't require a restart!

NiLSPACE 9y ago
It's not the entire layout engine that changes. They only switch to the CSS Style system of Servo: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/dknyjpe/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_tr... It's still pretty cool though :)
cornedor 9y ago
Wow, I restarted my browser because I assumed it was necessary.

diegoperini 9y ago

The proposed flag in about:config exists in Firefox Developer Edition too. I tried to enable it, then loaded some pages. There seems to be no distinction in visuals. Did it work seamlessly or is it currently NOP?

NiLSPACE 9y ago
The flag exists in Firefox Developer Edition but it doesn't do anything yet. You have to be on Nightly for it to have an actual effect: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/dko3ko1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6p9s24/psa_you_can_tr...
Manishearth 9y ago
You can check in about:support to see if it's actually enabled. It won't be for dev edition; dev edition didn't build it by default. about:config isn't user-facing so it will show prefs that do nothing on the current release channel or build.

the8472 9y ago

You can also try webrender, but it still has more issues than stylo in my experience. It gobbles up a lot of gfx memory for starters, which can actually slow things down if you don't have enough. But that's a known issue. gfx.webrender.enabled = true (restart required)

hansjorg 9y ago
According to the Reddit thread, enabling this will run both webrender and the regular renderer for now, so it will be both slower and more memory intensive.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

blauditore 9y ago

I cannot find the flag in about:config - my version is "56.0a1 (2017-07-23) (64-bit)", so it should be in there, no?

ronjouch 9y ago
I have the flag in my about:config with build `56.0a1 (2017-07-25) (64-bit)` under Linux. You're SO two days ago! Update your Nightly :)
- blauditore 9y ago
  Hmm, I got it through `ppa:ubuntu-mozilla-daily/ppa` on Ubuntu, so this is generally a couple days behind? Did you download it manually?
  - ronjouch 9y ago
    Yes, I like to run the official self-updating build from https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/latest-mozilla-central/ https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/latest-mozilla-c... , because it's the official build (which is appreciated when reporting bugs) and always fresh. - You could switch to that too (I run it even on my job Ubuntu machine, never saw any benefit to using the official Ubuntu PPA apart from proper packaging, which I don't care about, this Firefox lives in /opt/firefox and that's okay with me, and getting updates are a matter of hitting Help -> About, easy). - Or just wait a few days for the PPA to serve a fresher build. EDIT forget about this and read bzbarsky's answer above. Thanks, Boris :)
  - bzbarsky 9y ago
    It's entirely possible that Ubuntu is not compiling in stylo at all. In fact it's likely: Firefox nightlies on Linux have been shipping stylo (preffed off) for close to three weeks, so if a two-day-old Ubuntu build doesn't have it, chances are neither will a newer one until they change their build configuration to use --enable-stylo.
  - eridius 9y ago
    Looks like that disables Servo at build time. Someone on Reddit had the same problem - https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/6p9t83/psa_you_can_try_out_stylo_in_firefox_nightly_now/dknv93q/?context=4 https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/6p9t83/psa_you_can...

k__ 9y ago

Very cool. What parts of Servo are already in Firefox? What is missing? Is there a list of what will get into Firefox over time?

NiLSPACE 9y ago
There is a wiki page about Project Quantum: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Quantum https://wiki.mozilla.org/Quantum Currently Quantum CSS (Stylo) and Quantum Render (Webrender) are both in Firefox Nightly, but they are unstable and can cause really bad performance, especially Quantum Render. They won't be done until at least Firefox 57 and some most likely later. Quantum Compositor is in Release already I believe. It's the out of process compositor for Firefox. Changes from Quantum Flow are continuing to be implemented into Nightly and later on Beta. I haven't ready much about the progress around Quantum DOM, and I have no idea for which release it is targeted.
- k__ 9y ago
  Do I get this right. Servo is the experimental browser (engine?)? Quantum is the project that ports parts of Servo to Firefox over time?
  - sp332 9y ago
    Right. Servo is an engine that will be embeddable into apps that need to render HTML, not just browsers.
    - k__ 9y ago
      Ah, so like the omni-present webkit view?
      - sp332 9y ago
        Yeah, exactly. It doesn't include a JS engine so for now it uses SpiderMonkey, but eventually you should be able to plug others in.
  - 9y ago

Jayakumark 9y ago

When will this be incorporated in Firefox Mainstream release ?

steveklabnik 9y ago
The target, IIRC, is 57.
- Jayakumark 9y ago
  Cool, and when will servo go mainstream ?
metajack 9y ago
It should go out in Firefox 57 which is scheduled for November 14.

rajnathani 9y ago

Does anyone have any links to benchmarks?