4 ms·

It's all about controlling the narrative, for the very same reason Western governments have also increased their influence over everything digital over these pa

It's all about controlling the narrative, for the very same reason Western governments have also increased their influence over everything digital over these past 10 years. China might be doing it in the most obvious and blunt way, but they are not doing anything that's especially unique, other countries just have less obvious ways to get what they want. Like enacting laws to fine social media companies or pressuring them to tow the line trough less visible means.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Oh, ya it must all be the same! America brain washes everyone with faux news, no wait, CNN, but the president said that was fake news. Dammit, the USA government is doing a horrible job at controlling its propaganda machine. Meanwhile, Chinese censorship must be exactly the same as American censorship because of course everything is black and white and there is no room for dark and light grayness. /s
- dilemma 9y ago
  Why do you get upset when someone points out that the US heavily censors the internet through public companies, like in China, and that the US is heavily invested in controlling the narrative, aka public relations aka propaganda. Your world seems extremely black and white - US good, China bad. No room for nuance at all.
  - tuxracer 9y ago
    Surely there's nuance but the false equivalence here is pretty stunning. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a co-worker who is from China when he said something along the lines of, "There's censorship in America too! There's a Wikipedia article I can show you that lists all the instances!" ...uh yeah that's the point, we can both access Wikipedia directly here and nobody risks arrest or fines for having this very conversation. Contrary to the party line China is truly an aberration when it comes to censorship for a modern, wealthy, industrialized country. Pointing out that China belongs to a tiny group of outliers compared to the entire rest of planet Earth when it comes to censorship does not equate to somehow claiming the US has no faults.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    I get upset because of the binary thinking, as well as the what aboutism, but mainly the binary thinking. It's like, the USA executes people, china executes people too, so they must be the same. Ignore the fact that china executes a hell of a lot more people than the USA (even on a per capita basis), they aren't the same at all. Likewise, the USA has corruption, so does china, but the scales of the problems are completely different. Talking about the USA's censorship problem in the context of China's is like talking about a flu in the context of terminal brain cancer. Ya, they both suck, but one sucks a lot more than the other.
    - dilemma 9y ago
      You are the one with a binary mindset. Any flaw that is pointed out is "whataboutism" to you because it disturbs your black and white worldview of US good, China bad.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        > Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery in British English) is a variant of tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.
    - freeflight 9y ago
      > It's like, the USA executes people, china executes people too, so they must be the same. On principle they are the same, just because the scales are different does not mean the US is in any position to criticize Chinese behavior on that issue. It's pretty much the equivalent of "do as I say, not as I do" and a very easy to spot double standard. > Ya, they both suck, but one sucks a lot more than the other. Murder is murder, regardless of the scale, the injustice stays the same. Let's also put the scale into context [0] "China, together with Iran, North Korea, Yemen and the US (the only G7 country to still execute people) carried out the most executions last year." China, Iran, North Korea, Yemen, that's a list the US wants to be on too, really? From 2007 to 2012 the US executed more people than Pakistan, Yemen or North Korea did. > Likewise, the USA has corruption, so does china, but the scales of the problems are completely different. You realize that if you read Chinese media, you'd get exactly the opposite stories about how corrupt the US is? What does this mean? That all Chinese are constantly lying and all US Americans are always telling the truth? No, it only means countries control the narrative to make themselves shine in the most positive light possible. They do this regardless of what form of government they run, the only thing that changes are the methods they are using. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-...
- pizza 9y ago
  Censorship in America is not through retroactive erasure, it's through the Overton window.
petre 9y ago
> enacting laws to fine social media companies or pressuring them to tow the line trough less visible means This sounds like the Merkel approach to Internet censorship.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  I didn't know that was a thing...but googled it. Merkel argues it is to combat "fake news". I'd argue government restrictions on free speech is a bigger threat than fake news.
  - petre 9y ago
    It's to combat anything the gov't decides is fake news or hate speech or something else that is not so convenient for its agenda today, maybe the AfD website tomorrow? So if you write a poem critical to Edrogan, whoops, it's libel against other heads of state punishable by law.
- freeflight 9y ago
  Just be aware that this law didn't change that much, the legal situation was already horrendous in Germany before that due to the "Mitstörerhaftung". If you run a website in Germany you are liable for any and all content on your website, this includes user submitted content like comments. Add to that the fact that Germany has libel laws and considers Holocaust denial a crime and it's not surprising at all that barely any German websites allow for comments and if they do it's pretty much only moderated comments. While this might not be "direct censorship", it has the de-facto effect of censorship by suppressing "unpopular" opinions and putting scissors in people's head if they want their opinions to be published.
  - Grangar 9y ago
    What's preventing people to host German sites from an entity outside of Germany though? For instance, if I lived just across the border in the Netherlands and hosted a popular blog with unmoderated comments. What could they even do?

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Oh, ya it must all be the same! America brain washes everyone with faux news, no wait, CNN, but the president said that was fake news. Dammit, the USA government is doing a horrible job at controlling its propaganda machine. Meanwhile, Chinese censorship must be exactly the same as American censorship because of course everything is black and white and there is no room for dark and light grayness. /s

dilemma 9y ago
Why do you get upset when someone points out that the US heavily censors the internet through public companies, like in China, and that the US is heavily invested in controlling the narrative, aka public relations aka propaganda. Your world seems extremely black and white - US good, China bad. No room for nuance at all.
- tuxracer 9y ago
  Surely there's nuance but the false equivalence here is pretty stunning. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a co-worker who is from China when he said something along the lines of, "There's censorship in America too! There's a Wikipedia article I can show you that lists all the instances!" ...uh yeah that's the point, we can both access Wikipedia directly here and nobody risks arrest or fines for having this very conversation. Contrary to the party line China is truly an aberration when it comes to censorship for a modern, wealthy, industrialized country. Pointing out that China belongs to a tiny group of outliers compared to the entire rest of planet Earth when it comes to censorship does not equate to somehow claiming the US has no faults.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I get upset because of the binary thinking, as well as the what aboutism, but mainly the binary thinking. It's like, the USA executes people, china executes people too, so they must be the same. Ignore the fact that china executes a hell of a lot more people than the USA (even on a per capita basis), they aren't the same at all. Likewise, the USA has corruption, so does china, but the scales of the problems are completely different. Talking about the USA's censorship problem in the context of China's is like talking about a flu in the context of terminal brain cancer. Ya, they both suck, but one sucks a lot more than the other.
  - dilemma 9y ago
    You are the one with a binary mindset. Any flaw that is pointed out is "whataboutism" to you because it disturbs your black and white worldview of US good, China bad.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      > Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery in British English) is a variant of tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    > It's like, the USA executes people, china executes people too, so they must be the same. On principle they are the same, just because the scales are different does not mean the US is in any position to criticize Chinese behavior on that issue. It's pretty much the equivalent of "do as I say, not as I do" and a very easy to spot double standard. > Ya, they both suck, but one sucks a lot more than the other. Murder is murder, regardless of the scale, the injustice stays the same. Let's also put the scale into context [0] "China, together with Iran, North Korea, Yemen and the US (the only G7 country to still execute people) carried out the most executions last year." China, Iran, North Korea, Yemen, that's a list the US wants to be on too, really? From 2007 to 2012 the US executed more people than Pakistan, Yemen or North Korea did. > Likewise, the USA has corruption, so does china, but the scales of the problems are completely different. You realize that if you read Chinese media, you'd get exactly the opposite stories about how corrupt the US is? What does this mean? That all Chinese are constantly lying and all US Americans are always telling the truth? No, it only means countries control the narrative to make themselves shine in the most positive light possible. They do this regardless of what form of government they run, the only thing that changes are the methods they are using. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-...
pizza 9y ago
Censorship in America is not through retroactive erasure, it's through the Overton window.

petre 9y ago

> enacting laws to fine social media companies or pressuring them to tow the line trough less visible means This sounds like the Merkel approach to Internet censorship.

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
I didn't know that was a thing...but googled it. Merkel argues it is to combat "fake news". I'd argue government restrictions on free speech is a bigger threat than fake news.
- petre 9y ago
  It's to combat anything the gov't decides is fake news or hate speech or something else that is not so convenient for its agenda today, maybe the AfD website tomorrow? So if you write a poem critical to Edrogan, whoops, it's libel against other heads of state punishable by law.
freeflight 9y ago
Just be aware that this law didn't change that much, the legal situation was already horrendous in Germany before that due to the "Mitstörerhaftung". If you run a website in Germany you are liable for any and all content on your website, this includes user submitted content like comments. Add to that the fact that Germany has libel laws and considers Holocaust denial a crime and it's not surprising at all that barely any German websites allow for comments and if they do it's pretty much only moderated comments. While this might not be "direct censorship", it has the de-facto effect of censorship by suppressing "unpopular" opinions and putting scissors in people's head if they want their opinions to be published.
- Grangar 9y ago
  What's preventing people to host German sites from an entity outside of Germany though? For instance, if I lived just across the border in the Netherlands and hosted a popular blog with unmoderated comments. What could they even do?