4 ms·

"than there are people looking to pay, on average, $11,000 for 12 weeks of intensive training" ...able to pay $11,000 and not work full time for 12 weeks FTFY

"than there are people looking to pay, on average, $11,000 for 12 weeks of intensive training" ...able to pay $11,000 and not work full time for 12 weeks FTFY There isn’t really much evidence of a “skills gap” Except that hiring is nearly everyone's biggest problem in tech and, you know, that whole crazy H1B thing. Companies and Gov't job programs should be paying for dev schools not poor people. If they did it would all work out fine. As a matter of fact Iron Yard's corporate dev boot camp has been the profitable part of the business for some time. I'm flabbergasted by this article. I'm not going to waste the time to reply to every one of the ridiculous assertions. America desperately needs more skilled programmers in almost every market. Dev boot camps can and do get people to work. Many people in the position of needing a dev boot camp can't afford to go without work and pay for it at the same time (or at all).

acdha 9y ago
> America desperately needs more skilled programmers in almost every market. Outside of a few hotspots like SF, do offered wages really back that up? It's good being a developer but it certainly doesn't look like a desperate shortage.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  In metro Boston area, we're paying new college grads $100K to start and sometimes losing on comp. We're not "desperate", but for the overall market wage for new college grads to be 1.5x the state median household income, that smells like shortage to me.
  - nilkn 9y ago
    The state median household income includes high school dropouts working at McDonald's, and it includes folks living in very affordable rural areas with low wages. It's not a meaningful point of comparison when you're looking at a subset of workers who are highly educated and seeking jobs in a technically demanding field at companies located in almost exclusively expensive metro areas. To add to that, the Massachusetts median household income is nearly $70k. And in Boston? It's almost $80k. Moreover, the median family income in Boston is $100k. http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/massachusetts/boston/ http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/massachusetts/boston/
    - matwood 9y ago
      You made sokoloff's point. A fresh college grad on day 1 of working makes the median family income in Boston. To say that wages are not reflecting the shortage (the comment originally replied to), is ignoring the statistics.
      - nilkn 9y ago
        Not at all. In fact, as far as I can tell, you completely ignored the point I made, so I'll just repeat it: > The state median household income includes high school dropouts working at McDonald's, and it includes folks living in very affordable rural areas with low wages. It's not a meaningful point of comparison when you're looking at a subset of workers who are highly educated and seeking jobs in a technically demanding field at companies located in almost exclusively expensive metro areas. Replace "state median household income" with "Boston median family income" if you wish. Many elements here still apply after that substitution and must be addressed in detail if you wish to claim that I "made sokoloff's point". The part you replied to and didn't ignore was just a correction to incorrect statistics that had been cited without reference. It seems pretty warped to suggest that I made his/her point by indicating that the cited statistics were off by a factor of 2 -- and not in the direction that favors their argument. I think it would also help if you defined precisely what you mean by "shortage". You seem to be using an extremely loose definition that claims a shortage exists any time new workers in a particular industry are paid above the median family income. We must then conclude that there is a shortage of all kinds of workers across countless industries. For instance, because new engineers in the O&G industry are typically paid $80k-$100k, there must be a shortage, even though the industry has been having layoffs for years and certainly does not struggle to fill needed positions.
        sokoloff 9y ago
        > It seems pretty warped to suggest that I made his/her point by indicating that the cited statistics were off by a factor of 2 -- and not in the direction that favors their argument. Which statistic did I cite that was off by a factor of 2? Your figure of $70,628 is 4% higher than the google search result featured snippet for "median household income massachusetts" of $67,846, but even using your figure, my saying that $100K is "1.5x the state median household income" isn't anywhere near wrong by a factor of 2. 1.5 x $70,628 is $105,942. My claim is at the very most wrong by less than 6%, not the 100% you seem to be claiming.
- zumu 9y ago
  Why not just consult the BLS statistics? https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... Moreover, there are plenty of remote positions, so a programmer's physical location does not determine what geographical market they're in.
  - acdha 9y ago
    Why not consult the BLS stats? They have the median at $79k, which certainly isn't bad but it's not much out of line with other skilled professions. Again, I'm not saying it's bad to be a developer, only that I'd expect a truly desperate shortage to carry more of a premium. The figures still look like business or management careers are the way to go if you're looking for money.

acdha 9y ago

> America desperately needs more skilled programmers in almost every market. Outside of a few hotspots like SF, do offered wages really back that up? It's good being a developer but it certainly doesn't look like a desperate shortage.

sokoloff 9y ago
In metro Boston area, we're paying new college grads $100K to start and sometimes losing on comp. We're not "desperate", but for the overall market wage for new college grads to be 1.5x the state median household income, that smells like shortage to me.
- nilkn 9y ago
  The state median household income includes high school dropouts working at McDonald's, and it includes folks living in very affordable rural areas with low wages. It's not a meaningful point of comparison when you're looking at a subset of workers who are highly educated and seeking jobs in a technically demanding field at companies located in almost exclusively expensive metro areas. To add to that, the Massachusetts median household income is nearly $70k. And in Boston? It's almost $80k. Moreover, the median family income in Boston is $100k. http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/massachusetts/boston/ http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/massachusetts/boston/
  - matwood 9y ago
    You made sokoloff's point. A fresh college grad on day 1 of working makes the median family income in Boston. To say that wages are not reflecting the shortage (the comment originally replied to), is ignoring the statistics.
    - nilkn 9y ago
      Not at all. In fact, as far as I can tell, you completely ignored the point I made, so I'll just repeat it: > The state median household income includes high school dropouts working at McDonald's, and it includes folks living in very affordable rural areas with low wages. It's not a meaningful point of comparison when you're looking at a subset of workers who are highly educated and seeking jobs in a technically demanding field at companies located in almost exclusively expensive metro areas. Replace "state median household income" with "Boston median family income" if you wish. Many elements here still apply after that substitution and must be addressed in detail if you wish to claim that I "made sokoloff's point". The part you replied to and didn't ignore was just a correction to incorrect statistics that had been cited without reference. It seems pretty warped to suggest that I made his/her point by indicating that the cited statistics were off by a factor of 2 -- and not in the direction that favors their argument. I think it would also help if you defined precisely what you mean by "shortage". You seem to be using an extremely loose definition that claims a shortage exists any time new workers in a particular industry are paid above the median family income. We must then conclude that there is a shortage of all kinds of workers across countless industries. For instance, because new engineers in the O&G industry are typically paid $80k-$100k, there must be a shortage, even though the industry has been having layoffs for years and certainly does not struggle to fill needed positions.
      - sokoloff 9y ago
        > It seems pretty warped to suggest that I made his/her point by indicating that the cited statistics were off by a factor of 2 -- and not in the direction that favors their argument. Which statistic did I cite that was off by a factor of 2? Your figure of $70,628 is 4% higher than the google search result featured snippet for "median household income massachusetts" of $67,846, but even using your figure, my saying that $100K is "1.5x the state median household income" isn't anywhere near wrong by a factor of 2. 1.5 x $70,628 is $105,942. My claim is at the very most wrong by less than 6%, not the 100% you seem to be claiming.
zumu 9y ago
Why not just consult the BLS statistics? https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... Moreover, there are plenty of remote positions, so a programmer's physical location does not determine what geographical market they're in.
- acdha 9y ago
  Why not consult the BLS stats? They have the median at $79k, which certainly isn't bad but it's not much out of line with other skilled professions. Again, I'm not saying it's bad to be a developer, only that I'd expect a truly desperate shortage to carry more of a premium. The figures still look like business or management careers are the way to go if you're looking for money.