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"Michael Allen, the activist who got Whole Foods to stop selling Haystack Mountain's goat cheese, says he understands why prisoners like having those jobs. But

• pyrale 9y ago
  "How about people living on minimum wage then that get to pay for everything themselves?" How about them? Is it not a fundamentally flawed system when workers at the bottom of the scale wonder if they wouldn't be better off in prison? How do they feel about having to compete with forced labour? What entitles consumers to pay sub-living wages in order to benefit from a product? This reminds me of people feeling entitled to pay shit prices for some services because "it's just a student job". "Also, many people go to prison without any job experience, providing them with some increase their chances of reintegration to society." yeah, by forming them to a job that can apparently no longer sustain a free farmer.
  • rdtsc 9y ago
    Sadly enough it is true. I was told in some colder areas homeless people would commit a crime they know would amount to a few months prison sentence in the fall just to have a reliable shelter and food for the winter. Or there was a story of a man who robbed a bank then waited for the police to come so he could get some cancer treatment while in prison. When these things happen there is something very very wrong in a society
    • PixelB 9y ago
      The US seems to be experiencing more and more instances of "desperate" people in all senses. Desperate for jobs, healthcare, food, shelter, happiness.
• mtgx 9y ago
  You're conflating multiple issues. 1) Just because you're in prison, doesn't mean you deserve to be treated like a work animal. Some people are in there for serial murders, while the vast majority are there for theft, tax fraud, smoking marijuana, etc - maybe even for "resisting arrest". 2) Even if what you said made "economic sense", while disregarding any human rights the prisoners might have, the problem is that many (or most?) of the prisoners are now in private prisons. That means those prisons get both the taxpayer money and the free labor. So both the taxpayers and the prisoners lose, while the private prisons score a double-win. Do you think that's how it should work, too?
  • icebraining 9y ago
    the problem is that many (or most?) of the prisoners are now in private prisons It's actually around 8%: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-prison-population-has-declined-in-recent-years/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-...
  • lsiebert 9y ago
    http://time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/ http://time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/ 39% of prisoners shouldn't be in prison. Per Time magazine, not exactly the most liberal news publication I can think of. Prison labor transfers wealth from prisoners by paying them less so that the companies that employ them can save money.
  • Spooky23 9y ago
    The labor issue isn't a clear cut ethical no-no. Working to a productive end is one of the few rehabilitative avenues available. I'm pretty sure these type of jobs are seen as sought after privileges. Private prisons are most often jails (ie. short term, not places that do this) and do not represent the majority of prisoners. Sometimes advocates publish misleading figures about this by focusing on prisoners staying in contracted out facilities. The majority of those are prison beds in county jails. These are used to relieve over crowding, house prisoners closer to trial location or otherwise reduce transport. In some places, counties run these as a revenue generator.
• glibgil 9y ago
  You are promoting slavery
  • silassales 9y ago
    You are promoting illegal activity.
    • Broken_Hippo 9y ago
      There are prison systems that don't force their inmates into slave labor. Being against slavery, even in the prisons, is not promoting illegal activity in any sense.
• _wdh 9y ago
  The problem with this is that allowing prison labour to be cheaper than free labour puts competitors out of business and gives incentives to the state and business lobbyists to arrest more people for the sake of profit instead of reformation or containment.
  • IanCal 9y ago
    There are two different approaches to this that are the same on the outside. Paying the workers more is one, the other is charging a minimum for their time, but X% of their earned wages go to some other entity (the government directly, victim support, community projects). This would help the issue with competition, but not necessarily the other issues. It also doesn't touch the moral aspect of how much people should get paid.
    • PixelB 9y ago
      Get rid of private prisons, period. You can even keep the same business model except instead of the profits going to a corporation, the system is run as a non-profit government entity and the workers are actually paid a fair wage. As it is right now, we have slaves working to enrich CEOs, board members and investors.
      • icebraining 9y ago
        You can even keep the same business model except instead of the profits going to a corporation, the system is run as a non-profit government entity Which is exactly what's happening in this case. There's no private corporation, it's a governmental division, yet the inmates are still paid a pittance. Maybe you should review your preconception of private industry vs government.
• pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  You could require the prisoners be paid out of the segregated finances of the dairy and simultaneously garnish that pay to assist in paying the same prisoners living costs. Or perhaps make products that either aren't cost effective for market, or solely to serve food-banks or other charities?
  • icebraining 9y ago
    You could require the prisoners be paid out of the segregated finances of the dairy and simultaneously garnish that pay to assist in paying the same prisoners living costs. I think that's essentially what's happening here.
• 3131s 9y ago
  The point is to reward prisoners for being functional and using their time constructively. It's important to give prisoners every chance to become habituated to a normal life.
• vinceguidry 9y ago
  > Inmates get free shelter, free food, free healthcare (well, taxpayers pay for it, but that's another topic), so it's only fair that they make up some of it by providing labor imho. You call these things free? If I shot you in the head, would you consider it me giving you a free bullet?
  • zrth 9y ago
    (OT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee & http://ask.metafilter.com/196673/Did-China-ever-actually-send-prisoners-families-a-bill-for-the-bullet http://ask.metafilter.com/196673/Did-China-ever-actually-sen... ; Apparently its an urban myth at least for china though)
• crispyambulance 9y ago
  > I myself would accept some wage cut to work in a place with such view. Would you take a wage cut down to $1 dollar a day? And if so, would you still do that putting yourself into the shoes of the inmates who face grim job prospects as ex-felons when they get out regardless of their work history?
  • silassales 9y ago
    You acting like those inmates didn't put themselves there? Oh I feel so bad for them that they made the choice to break the law.
    • crispyambulance 9y ago
      Sure, the inmates may "deserve" to be in prison but they're also human beings and NOT slaves. It is morally unacceptable that anyone can profit from slave labor in a free country. Moreover, it also hurts honest businesses who are required to pay their workers normal wages.
      • icebraining 9y ago
        Who is profiting here?
        • crispyambulance 9y ago
          Haystack Mountain, every business in its sales channels and whoever else buys goat milk made by people earning $1/day.
          • silassales 9y ago
            No, the prison uses the money they make from the sales for the prison, that was in the article. Haystack would still have bought the milk for standard price, and sell their cheese at standard price. The extra money from the cheap labor when into the prison itself.
• wfo 9y ago
  Yes, life is horrifying for people on minimum wage. Why not make life better for people out of prison rather than exploit people in prison and then hold them up by comparison to the free but brutally impoverished ones and say "look how great you have it, you're not doing slave labor!" Supposedly rehabilitation is a goal of prison; how nice would it be if prisoners walked out with a small nest egg, to help them get settled and survive while they go through the impossibly difficult task of finding a job with a criminal record? Right now, it's very tempting to go straight back into crime or drugs since these are the only career opportunities available. Maybe saving at minimum wage for 5 years would give them enough money to for the first time in their life feel safe, or enough capital to invest in something that could make their lives better, like tools, a business, etc. Maybe they could get some fulfillment and feel like they are part of a social unit by sending money back to their family while in prison. Maybe if they are paid the market value of their labor they will develop confidence that their labor is worth something and a viable alternative to, say, crime. And yes prison is expensive for the state, but that's the state's problem and provides no justification for exploitation. The state can't do something unspeakable to you like lock you in a cage to be beaten and raped for decades and then make you pay for it. If prison is too expensive, the state should imprison fewer people. There are far more economically efficient alternatives to locking up millions and throwing away the key (like improving conditions for the poor!); the state is making a stupid, cruel, and horrible choice and it should pay the full price for it or it has no incentive to make a better one.