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> Globalisation makes it inevitable, of course, I would push back on this thinking that Globalization itself is inevitable. We have seen the reaction to this t

> Globalisation makes it inevitable, of course, I would push back on this thinking that Globalization itself is inevitable. We have seen the reaction to this thinking in recent years -- you end up with Trumps, and Mays, and (almost) Le Pen's. Greeks are a prime example -- despite the intense crisis and austerity measures, the country still values its lunch and coffee breaks, despite how much we here in the west criticize them for "being lazy"

untog 9y ago
> Greeks are a prime example -- despite the intense crisis and austerity measures, the country still values its lunch and coffee breaks Right, and their economy is in free fall. I'm not saying you can't do it, but that cost to doing it is ever-increasing.
- treehau5 9y ago
  Actually the free fall has seemed to have slowed, and bottomed out. It's just a different cultural value -- not every culture values the green dollar as much as America or the UK or likewise. Is it the best for your GDP? Probably not, but it's honorable. "Cash is King" is not something you hear many Greeks say about one another
  - petre 9y ago
    The whole Eurozone is actuallly in trouble, not just Greece. And it's definitely not Greece's fault, it's bad Euro kickstarting to begin with (not consolidating debt), followed by the 2008 financial crisis, followed by the Eurozone crisis and dumb ECB monetary policy (negative interest rates) in recent years. Cash is king because you can still use it in times when the banks/ATMs only allow you to withdraw 300 euros.
  - bpodgursky 9y ago
    Spending borrowed money like candy and calling repayment oppression isn't a cultural value I care about protecting.
    - vkou 9y ago
      Bankruptcy exists for a reason. If all debt were risk free, lenders would have no right to charge interest for it. Lenders who issue loans to organizations who won't ever be able to pay them off aren't a group I care very much for protecting, either. They were sophisticated investors who knew the risks. Greece is a sovereign state, and its first obligation its to its people.
      - bpodgursky 9y ago
        Yeah, I have no problem with that, they should declare bankruptcy then, and deal with the fallout. But that's not what Greece chose to do -- they accepted bailout money and continue to complain about it,
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    > It's just a different cultural value -- not every culture values the green dollar as much as America or the UK or likewise. Past Greek governments sure looked like they loved other people's cash a lot for having borrowed so much of it. It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash.
    - treehau5 9y ago
      > Past Greek governments Therein lies the distinction. The government of course loves the money. That's why the people are fed up with the greedy politicians and bankers. > It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash. It's funny how this statement proves you have absolutely zero knowledge of the culture and are projecting your own pessimistic views on people and societies onto one you know very little about.
- Clubber 9y ago
  The US economy was in free fall in 2008 and 2001 and had nothing to do with how or when people worked. We're overdue for another one.
  - jonknee 9y ago
    All a matter of perspective I suppose, the current "stabilized" Greece is in much worse shape now than the US was at the worst point of the Great Recession (> 20% unemployment!).
    - Clubber 9y ago
      Yes, they are/were in bad shape, but from what I understand their problems stem from what our problems were: greed and corruption, not the workforce taking long lunches or not working 40 hours a week. Puerto Rico has similar issues with their economy. They took a lot of loans they shouldn't have. As an aside, our unemployment is a funny number in that it doesn't include people who have given up looking for work. I think that category is the highest it's been in a while, or in US history. I'm not sure if Greece calculates it in the same manner.
klibertp 9y ago
> Greeks are a prime example I would love to hear from a Greek on this. It's admittedly a very biased source, but I was following mr. Varoufakis writing/interviews back when the negotiations were being held and my understanding is that the "intense crisis" is, at this point and with the policies in place, mathematically impossible to fix (with really dire results for the country and people). If that's true then I can definitely understand the Greeks wanting to at least have their coffee breaks...
- treehau5 9y ago
  > I would love to hear from a Greek on this. I am Greek
  - klibertp 9y ago
    Great! If you don't mind me asking, what do you think about the crisis - the reasons for it and the proposed and implemented coping strategies - your country has fallen into? You seem to suggest that the Greek work ethic is, in part, responsible for the crisis - if so, when that ethic became commonplace? And how come it formed in the first place? And why didn't it disappear naturally? I'm asking this, because in my country - a post-Soviet one, after 50 years of nominally communist policy - we used to also have little to no respect for work. But that was because there was little correlation between your work and the money it got you. Once we started getting all capitalist in the 90's that started to change and by today most of the society understands that if you want more money you need to work harder.
    - treehau5 9y ago
      There are many reasons, too many to list here but in essence, modern Greece has had a very tough time, from the Ottoman yoke, to British control, monarchies and military dictatorships, the Balkan wars in their back yard, then WWI/WWII naturally took the country back further, especially w.r.t to Mussolini (the famous "Oxi day"). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_modern_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_modern_Greece) After the war was a military dictatorship. So really we have had 1970 and on (heck 1970 was the first year the government and people could even decide on what _dialect_ of Greek language to use. To me, it's a miracle the country still stands and is a testament to it's resiliency. The Crisis is a big debt snowball that shouldn't have been allowed to happen, kind of similar to the American housing crisis where people who should have never been getting $500,000 mortgages were given $500,000 dollar mortgages then the world was shocked when they somehow managed to default, and meanwhile you had corrupt Wall Street bankers betting that these people would default. Similarly, you hand a country who has been in borderline poverty since the formation of their autonomous modern nation all this money, then are surprised when their corrupt politicians and banking institutions (as well as your corrupt Wall Street institutions like Goldman Sachs, who helped these corrupt bankers hide their debt) mishandle it. Then of course the IMF took advantage of the situation, and it turned into basically one big, as Americans would call it "poor tax" where you take advantage of someone who is already down. (Hey this guy can barely pay for his bills at it is, lets fuck him over and charge him 25$ dollars to cash his 300 dollar paycheck -- like this, but on a country level. Somehow that moderate amount of debt turned into 137% of GDP after it snowballed and stupid ass Greek politicians kept accepting these stupid packages with stupid terms /endrant) My suggestion about the Greek ethic was a sarcastic one, I put it in quotes, apologies if that didn't come through the text. Many people think just because you value work/life balance that you are somehow "lazy". I think Americans are seeing this now with millennials who demand they have adequate work/life balance (and good for them). It's always been a common adage that Americans live to work and (most European countries) work to live. I don't think this is necessary unique to Greeks, it just so happens we are in the crisis and it's an easy target to point the finger and just say "well if they just weren't so lazy!"
icebraining 9y ago
Greece has one of the longest working journeys of the EU: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/gdp-and-beyond/quality-of-life/average-number-of-usual-weekly-hours-of-work-in-main-job http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/gdp-and-beyond/quality-of-l...
- treehau5 9y ago
  Kind of a pointless chart to me at this point since the data is from 2011 on - massive austerity and joblessness is skewing this data -- the people who do have jobs are working longer just to make the same pay, and the country has 22.5% unemployment, and hovers around 50% youth unemployment. I would be interested in viewing the charts pre-crisis - 2009 and earlier.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Here are the numbers for 2008/9. Greece is still in the top: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMARK_DS-055986_QID_-19AA035E_UID_-3F171EB0&layout=TIME,C,X,0;GEO,L,Y,0;SEX,L,Z,0;WORKTIME,L,Z,1;WSTATUS,L,Z,2;NACE_R2,L,Z,3;UNIT,L,Z,4;INDICATORS,C,Z,5;&zSelection=DS-055986SEX,T;DS-055986NACE_R2,TOTAL;DS-055986WSTATUS,EMP;DS-055986UNIT,HR;DS-055986WORKTIME,TOTAL;DS-055986INDICATORS,OBS_FLAG;&rankName1=WSTATUS_1_2_-1_2&rankName2=UNIT_1_2_-1_2&rankName3=WORKTIME_1_2_-1_2&rankName4=INDICATORS_1_2_-1_2&rankName5=SEX_1_2_-1_2&rankName6=NACE-R2_1_2_-1_2&rankName7=TIME_1_0_0_0&rankName8=GEO_1_0_0_1&sortR=ASC_0&sortC=ASC_-1_FIRST&rStp=&cStp=&rDCh=&cDCh=&rDM=true&cDM=true&footnes=false&empty=false&wai=false&time_mode=NONE&time_most_recent=false&lang=EN&cfo=%23%23%23%2C%23%23%23.%23%23%23 http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMA...
HillaryBriss 9y ago
i don't criticize them for being lazy
anigbrowl 9y ago
Globalization is inevitable in that we're not going to un-invent or abandon use of the internet, containerization, or any of the other technological things that allow the existence of global supply chains. Technologies are sometimes lost as a result of social collapse (eg Damascus steel) but they're never willingly decommissioned. Globalization doesn't have to mean homogenization, though. It's interesting to think about alternative possibilities that are not bound up with the centralization of wealth as a condition of production.

untog 9y ago

> Greeks are a prime example -- despite the intense crisis and austerity measures, the country still values its lunch and coffee breaks Right, and their economy is in free fall. I'm not saying you can't do it, but that cost to doing it is ever-increasing.

treehau5 9y ago
Actually the free fall has seemed to have slowed, and bottomed out. It's just a different cultural value -- not every culture values the green dollar as much as America or the UK or likewise. Is it the best for your GDP? Probably not, but it's honorable. "Cash is King" is not something you hear many Greeks say about one another
- petre 9y ago
  The whole Eurozone is actuallly in trouble, not just Greece. And it's definitely not Greece's fault, it's bad Euro kickstarting to begin with (not consolidating debt), followed by the 2008 financial crisis, followed by the Eurozone crisis and dumb ECB monetary policy (negative interest rates) in recent years. Cash is king because you can still use it in times when the banks/ATMs only allow you to withdraw 300 euros.
- bpodgursky 9y ago
  Spending borrowed money like candy and calling repayment oppression isn't a cultural value I care about protecting.
  - vkou 9y ago
    Bankruptcy exists for a reason. If all debt were risk free, lenders would have no right to charge interest for it. Lenders who issue loans to organizations who won't ever be able to pay them off aren't a group I care very much for protecting, either. They were sophisticated investors who knew the risks. Greece is a sovereign state, and its first obligation its to its people.
    - bpodgursky 9y ago
      Yeah, I have no problem with that, they should declare bankruptcy then, and deal with the fallout. But that's not what Greece chose to do -- they accepted bailout money and continue to complain about it,
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > It's just a different cultural value -- not every culture values the green dollar as much as America or the UK or likewise. Past Greek governments sure looked like they loved other people's cash a lot for having borrowed so much of it. It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash.
  - treehau5 9y ago
    > Past Greek governments Therein lies the distinction. The government of course loves the money. That's why the people are fed up with the greedy politicians and bankers. > It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash. It's funny how this statement proves you have absolutely zero knowledge of the culture and are projecting your own pessimistic views on people and societies onto one you know very little about.
Clubber 9y ago
The US economy was in free fall in 2008 and 2001 and had nothing to do with how or when people worked. We're overdue for another one.
- jonknee 9y ago
  All a matter of perspective I suppose, the current "stabilized" Greece is in much worse shape now than the US was at the worst point of the Great Recession (> 20% unemployment!).
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Yes, they are/were in bad shape, but from what I understand their problems stem from what our problems were: greed and corruption, not the workforce taking long lunches or not working 40 hours a week. Puerto Rico has similar issues with their economy. They took a lot of loans they shouldn't have. As an aside, our unemployment is a funny number in that it doesn't include people who have given up looking for work. I think that category is the highest it's been in a while, or in US history. I'm not sure if Greece calculates it in the same manner.

klibertp 9y ago

> Greeks are a prime example I would love to hear from a Greek on this. It's admittedly a very biased source, but I was following mr. Varoufakis writing/interviews back when the negotiations were being held and my understanding is that the "intense crisis" is, at this point and with the policies in place, mathematically impossible to fix (with really dire results for the country and people). If that's true then I can definitely understand the Greeks wanting to at least have their coffee breaks...

treehau5 9y ago
> I would love to hear from a Greek on this. I am Greek
- klibertp 9y ago
  Great! If you don't mind me asking, what do you think about the crisis - the reasons for it and the proposed and implemented coping strategies - your country has fallen into? You seem to suggest that the Greek work ethic is, in part, responsible for the crisis - if so, when that ethic became commonplace? And how come it formed in the first place? And why didn't it disappear naturally? I'm asking this, because in my country - a post-Soviet one, after 50 years of nominally communist policy - we used to also have little to no respect for work. But that was because there was little correlation between your work and the money it got you. Once we started getting all capitalist in the 90's that started to change and by today most of the society understands that if you want more money you need to work harder.
  - treehau5 9y ago
    There are many reasons, too many to list here but in essence, modern Greece has had a very tough time, from the Ottoman yoke, to British control, monarchies and military dictatorships, the Balkan wars in their back yard, then WWI/WWII naturally took the country back further, especially w.r.t to Mussolini (the famous "Oxi day"). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_modern_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_modern_Greece) After the war was a military dictatorship. So really we have had 1970 and on (heck 1970 was the first year the government and people could even decide on what _dialect_ of Greek language to use. To me, it's a miracle the country still stands and is a testament to it's resiliency. The Crisis is a big debt snowball that shouldn't have been allowed to happen, kind of similar to the American housing crisis where people who should have never been getting $500,000 mortgages were given $500,000 dollar mortgages then the world was shocked when they somehow managed to default, and meanwhile you had corrupt Wall Street bankers betting that these people would default. Similarly, you hand a country who has been in borderline poverty since the formation of their autonomous modern nation all this money, then are surprised when their corrupt politicians and banking institutions (as well as your corrupt Wall Street institutions like Goldman Sachs, who helped these corrupt bankers hide their debt) mishandle it. Then of course the IMF took advantage of the situation, and it turned into basically one big, as Americans would call it "poor tax" where you take advantage of someone who is already down. (Hey this guy can barely pay for his bills at it is, lets fuck him over and charge him 25$ dollars to cash his 300 dollar paycheck -- like this, but on a country level. Somehow that moderate amount of debt turned into 137% of GDP after it snowballed and stupid ass Greek politicians kept accepting these stupid packages with stupid terms /endrant) My suggestion about the Greek ethic was a sarcastic one, I put it in quotes, apologies if that didn't come through the text. Many people think just because you value work/life balance that you are somehow "lazy". I think Americans are seeing this now with millennials who demand they have adequate work/life balance (and good for them). It's always been a common adage that Americans live to work and (most European countries) work to live. I don't think this is necessary unique to Greeks, it just so happens we are in the crisis and it's an easy target to point the finger and just say "well if they just weren't so lazy!"

icebraining 9y ago

Greece has one of the longest working journeys of the EU: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/gdp-and-beyond/quality-of-life/average-number-of-usual-weekly-hours-of-work-in-main-job http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/gdp-and-beyond/quality-of-l...

treehau5 9y ago
Kind of a pointless chart to me at this point since the data is from 2011 on - massive austerity and joblessness is skewing this data -- the people who do have jobs are working longer just to make the same pay, and the country has 22.5% unemployment, and hovers around 50% youth unemployment. I would be interested in viewing the charts pre-crisis - 2009 and earlier.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Here are the numbers for 2008/9. Greece is still in the top: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMARK_DS-055986_QID_-19AA035E_UID_-3F171EB0&layout=TIME,C,X,0;GEO,L,Y,0;SEX,L,Z,0;WORKTIME,L,Z,1;WSTATUS,L,Z,2;NACE_R2,L,Z,3;UNIT,L,Z,4;INDICATORS,C,Z,5;&zSelection=DS-055986SEX,T;DS-055986NACE_R2,TOTAL;DS-055986WSTATUS,EMP;DS-055986UNIT,HR;DS-055986WORKTIME,TOTAL;DS-055986INDICATORS,OBS_FLAG;&rankName1=WSTATUS_1_2_-1_2&rankName2=UNIT_1_2_-1_2&rankName3=WORKTIME_1_2_-1_2&rankName4=INDICATORS_1_2_-1_2&rankName5=SEX_1_2_-1_2&rankName6=NACE-R2_1_2_-1_2&rankName7=TIME_1_0_0_0&rankName8=GEO_1_0_0_1&sortR=ASC_0&sortC=ASC_-1_FIRST&rStp=&cStp=&rDCh=&cDCh=&rDM=true&cDM=true&footnes=false&empty=false&wai=false&time_mode=NONE&time_most_recent=false&lang=EN&cfo=%23%23%23%2C%23%23%23.%23%23%23 http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMA...

HillaryBriss 9y ago

i don't criticize them for being lazy

anigbrowl 9y ago

Globalization is inevitable in that we're not going to un-invent or abandon use of the internet, containerization, or any of the other technological things that allow the existence of global supply chains. Technologies are sometimes lost as a result of social collapse (eg Damascus steel) but they're never willingly decommissioned. Globalization doesn't have to mean homogenization, though. It's interesting to think about alternative possibilities that are not bound up with the centralization of wealth as a condition of production.