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Should Community Colleges Abolish Algebra?

c517402 9y ago
There was a time when a good Liberal Arts education included Calculus because it was considered one of the great achievements of Western Civilization. The article says, "Their thinking has led to initiatives like Community College Pathways, which strays away from abstract algebra to engage students in real-world math applications." My interpretation of this is that the article authors are math illiterate enough not to know that "abstract algebra" is thing. How sad to think that some people think that community college intermediate algebra is so abstract that people can't get it.
- tnecniv 9y ago
  > How sad to think that some people think that community college intermediate algebra is so abstract that people can't get it. I agree, but I don't think more motivation is a bad thing. I hated math (even as an engineer) despite being good at it until I was a junior in college. I got interested in high-level math when I saw what some PhD students were doing for research and that inspired me to dig deeper. Now I appreciate math just for the beauty of it. I wish I had this appreciation in high school, but some people just need a good answer for "why?"
jchw 9y ago
A bunch of people who are good at math will defend this. For good reasons, but most likely also just because they love mathematics. But I do kind of question if it's really a good use of everyone's time to learn algebra. For computer science and engineering I can sort of see why you'd want that, but I'll be honest: even in computer science I think most people don't need it. Even when I'm doing algebraic work, it's rarely stuff I learned in a math class. Trig and calculus come more in handy, but unfortunately my day job of writing backend servers does not fundamentally benefit from this. I think many of us could say this. That's not to say there aren't other benefits of studying mathematics, but if it's really not working then I can see why people are just calling to make it optional. No point in making people suffer through apparently ineffective education.
- mcphage 9y ago
  > But I do kind of question if it's really a good use of everyone's time to learn algebra. There are things taught in it (and in other courses of general math) that probably don't need to be—long division comes to mind—but there are some pretty fundamental mental concepts that I'd hate for people to lack.
0xffff2 9y ago
>So if you're not a STEM major ... why even study algebra? I feel like this is equivalent to saying "if you are a STEM major, why even study writing?" I do some technical writing for work, but absolutely none of the kind of writing I did in my college writing classes. Would anyone, especially a non-STEM major, care to make an argument that the two cases are different?
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  People are far more likely to benefit economically from strong communication skills than strong math skills. The vast majority of people go to community college to help themselves economically.
  - mjfl 9y ago
    Because basic financial planning doesn't require math...
  - kbenson 9y ago
    I'm not sure I buy that. At a minimum, I don't think it's obvious enough to stand without some references or reasoning. Understanding compound interest at a minimum probably provides an immense benefit to those it keeps from making bad assumptions about taking on and getting out of debt.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      Strong writing skills are more likely to get you a job. This is anecdotal, but in my experience those who are forced to take math classes rarely benefit from them in the financial sense you're referring to. A financial planning course, on the other hand, would be immensely valuable. People should be forced to take that, not algebra. Knowing how to save money on tax returns, how to calculate a budget, software to manage it all... If school is being used for job training, then I wish it would train that.
      - kermittd 9y ago
maxxxxx 9y ago
I think algebra should be taught in a different way. I remember in school I just didn't get it for more than a year and almost failed math. Then my brother in law gave me a few examples and suddenly it clicked. From then on it was super easy. I think a lot of people who aren't inclined towards math just don't get it because it's taught the wrong way.
- indigo0086 9y ago
  intuition isn't taught in schools for the most part, most of my math teachers didn't go into proofs or intuitively figuring out mathematical concepts. It's all to get you the right answers on standardized tests. I didn't learn this until well after I graduated from college.
panic 9y ago
Would they even be considering this change without the pressure to increase graduation rates? Even if changing the requirements is the right thing to do, this seems like the wrong reason to do it.
warcher 9y ago
Yeah man, the cure for declining American competitiveness is absolutely dumbing things down even further. The other countries need to respect our dum-dums!
- warcher 9y ago
  I swear to god NPR spends half their time actively trolling at this point.
- bsder 9y ago
  Read the article, the goal is to have alternate math courses. And, to be fair, that's probably a GOOD idea. A standard algebra course is a lousy math course if you aren't going any further. Schools used to have a course that was "shop math" aka how to do the things you might have to do in construction, machining, etc. This included elements of algebra, geometry, trig, and statistics. It was a much better match for people who were not going forward to more theoretical math or science.
  - warcher 9y ago
    I read and respectfully disagree-- this is college, not high school or trade school. You're not training for diesel engine repair here, you're training for white-collar jobs. Basic algebra is pretty uniformly necessary today, and it isn't becoming less so in the future.
    - bsder 9y ago
      Community college isn't quite that cut and dried. There are quite a few 2-year Associate's degrees that are not "academic". One of the community colleges near me has quite a good nursing program. How much "algebra" will they need vs. procedures for medication dosage calculation? "Algebra" has a lot of dead ends for practical use. A great example is "How do you divide by a fraction?"--a fairly routine algebraic manipulation. Yet, I can't even think of when I have had a real world situation where I had to "divide by a fraction". Multiply by a fraction? Sure. Divide by a whole number? Sure. Calculate a percentage? Sure. Divide by a fraction? Ummmmm. I would argue that algebra is both too advanced in many places AND too sketchy in others. Geometry is something that people need and don't get because it is after algebra that they fail. The worst part is that a lot of people have better geometric intuition than mathematical and would do better to have geometry first. Should they have a math course? Yes. Should it be the pedagogical algebra? Not as obvious.
Spooky23 9y ago
What a disservice for people of color. I get that its NPR and they like to pin a racial angle on many things -- but the need for remedial math, reading and writing education at this level shouldn't be associated with race at all -- its a problem that needs to be solved. Intermediate algebra isn't particularly difficult but requires a moderate level of attention. It's a basic skill expected to exist for many common career paths, including many in community college. If majorities of students cannot hack that, perhaps they aren't prepared to commit to a meaningful education.
wellsjohnston 9y ago
No.
mjfl 9y ago
It took 5 community college students to change 25 light bulbs, how many lightbulbs did each student change on average? I guess they'll never know...
phkahler 9y ago
It sounds like California needs to improve its K-12 education. Any adult who graduated high school should be prepared to pass an algebra class. I tutored math in community college back in the day and I saw people of all ages and all majors and while plenty of them just wanted to do enough to meet the requirements, they all could do it in the end. There may be bias in this because I saw those who sought assistance when they needed it, but maybe that's a behavior that needs to be taught too.
- 0xffff2 9y ago
  As a product of the California K-12 system, I seem to recall being required to pass basic and intermediate algebra in high school. I then signed up for the Army and spent 4 years not doing much math. When I got out and went to sign up for community college, I actually had to take the placement test twice to get a high enough score to skip retaking the exact kind of algebra course talked about in this article.
booleandilemma 9y ago
So coding is the new literacy but we can afford to skimp on the math?
- tptacek 9y ago
  Yes? Virtually none if the coding that professionals do requires any formal intuition for algebra.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    Once you do actual programming instead of guess work, it does. Try evaluating performance of anything without algebra. Or without statistics.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      What specifically are you thinking of wrt performance evaluation and Algebra? I do a lot of that and the statistics requirements are obvious. I'm having less success identifying the algebra.
  - pcwalton 9y ago
    I had to learn a lot of linear algebra on the job that I kind of wish I had learned more of in school. Granted, I ended up doing graphics, which is pretty specialized. But I think it's safe to say that the number of programmers who have to know algebra and beyond is more than "virtually none".
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Sure, but that's like someone who programs genetic assays saying you have to learn a lot of molecular biology to program. In the last 5 years I've been working, I've done a bunch of linear algebra for cryptanalysis. But in the 18 years preceding that, zilch.
  - gsylvie 9y ago
    I think there's more algebra in frontend development. For example: CSS or SVG gradients, JavaScript animations and fades, the occasional clever data visualization. Heck, even the CSS box model? Backend or frontend, if you use any quantitative metrics in your year-end performance evals, then some algebra is going to be helpful! And you never know what will come up. I was once contracted by a regional government to write some code to correct hourly sensor readings (water levels in wells) based on a monthly manual human reading (ground truth). When it was done my boss remarked, "oh, this is just a linear transformation."
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nanolith 9y ago
The response to low graduation rates can't be to further dumb down the degree. Every functioning adult should understand algebra. I'd actually argue that trigonometry should also be included in this list, but that's probably only useful for adults who build things, and sadly, not very many adults do build things these days. Instead of removing Algebra, we need to consider better ways to teach this subject to people who do not have a lot of the fundamentals in place already. One of the biggest problems with College Algebra is that it assumes a certain level of math literacy that isn't universal. Algebra simply isn't that hard of a subject to master, but it is something that requires a different sort of teaching strategy than is used at the average community college. Give me a motivated adult who understands basic arithmetic, and I can help him or her master algebra in six to eight weeks. We can go from zero to FOIL, and quadratic to partial fraction decomposition in that amount of time. The key is to listen and to instill a level of confidence as early as possible in this process. Many adults consider math to be "hard" -- not from the perspective of it actually being hard, which it is -- but from the perspective of "this is too hard for me to do, because I'm not a math person." Break this mental block, and anyone can do algebra.
- plandis 9y ago
  Why do you think that every functioning adult should understand algebra?
  - trendia 9y ago
    Is it cheaper to buy 1 case of water for $2.50 or 3 cases of water for $9.00 ? If you get a $1,000 loan at 1% interest each month, how much will you owe in 1 year? You can buy a phone for $500 or pay Verizon $16.70 / month for 36 months. Which is cheaper?
    - deleted 9y ago
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    - bcruddy 9y ago
      > If you get a $1,000 loan at 1% interest each month, how much will you owe in 1 year? Pe = nRT is actually the first thing taught in calc 1.
darawk 9y ago
Our education system is failing! Let's blame the height of the standards.
thedevil 9y ago
Modern Educayshun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM
vpribish 9y ago
Algebra? If you can't understand algebra there is something dreadfully wrong with you mind, your attitude, or your instruction - Questions should be raised and no degree should be awarded. Ok - I guess it depends on what they include in an algebra course. Here is an intermediate algebra course outline (pdf warning): https://www.ccsf.edu/dam/Organizational_Assets/Department/Mathematics/MATH-60-Intermediate-Algebra.pdf https://www.ccsf.edu/dam/Organizational_Assets/Department/Ma... It goes beyond the basics but certainly should be passable by any ordinary person who works at it. This is one of the major things that a degree (any degree) should indicate : this person can work through learning new things. Removing this makes the degree less valuable.
- kermittd 9y ago
  Hmm I disagree that something is wrong if you can't understand algebra. Something is wrong with a system that make you "learn" information irrelevant to your own life.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    You don't perform "addition, multiplication, addition, and subtraction of rational expressions" in your every-day life? You don't "Identify key features of and sketch graphs" when e.g. planning an expensive purchase or reading the news? No business owner is going to survive if they don't understand how to solve a system of equations (aka figure out feasible pricing before losing all their money). Although we are on a tech VC's news site, so I stand corrected ;-) Being an informed citizen capable of taking care of yourself does require most of the things taught in middle/high school algebra. (Which are the same exact things taught in CC algebra.) A surprising amount of financial suffering is self-imposed by people who can't or won't do very basic math.
    - jshevek 9y ago
      Indeed! Requiring _less_ math is a frightening idea to me, in a system of government in which nearly everyone has the right to vote. Properly understanding even the most basic information that informs policy decisions often requires a more advanced understanding than algebra.
unabridged 9y ago
I think you are lucky to have a high school diploma if you cannot do basic algebra. I don't think we need to extend this academic leniency to associates degrees in science also. Most classes in community college have been dumbed down so much that anyone can pass them by showing up and doing mediocre on a few multiple choice tests. You can just memorize a few definitions and get through without learning anything.
armenarmen 9y ago
Do we want to optimize for the number of degrees issued or for the amount of people that know things?
- plandis 9y ago
  I wonder if those goals of increasing the amount of general knowledge someone knows is in alignment with the goals of attending community it's college? I'd imagine for a lot of students in community college they care more about getting a job than they do about learning for learnings sake.
  - armenarmen 9y ago
    Very fair counter point. I would think that the trade school elements of CC would down the road require some knowledge of algebra though right? Be it nursing, plumbing or carpentry
    - aaachilless 9y ago
      The course in question contains topics like imaginary numbers, sequences/series, and conic sections along with the more practical topics like basic inequalities, graphs of functions, and simple systems of equations. The alternative pathways program seems to swap out these topics for basic topics in probability, statistics, and the like. Seems reasonable to me.
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jeffdavis 9y ago
As I said before: math courses are objective, so they make a reasonable "canary in the coal mine" for a failed education. Maybe you don't need math. But if you can't pass the course, there may be other serious problems. It's easy enough to keep pushing kids/adults forward by redefining success in other subjects. Extra credit, dubious essay standards, grade inflation, etc. We need math to keep the system honest.
cbanek 9y ago
I feel like this is pretty frightening. I thought algebra was basically a high school requirement? Not only do I think everyone should be able to understand basic algebra, they should understand basic statistics and probabilities (which is pretty hard to understand without algebra). These days, not only do people not understand math, but we use numbers and statistics to lie to people and mislead their decision making. Now we seem to just be making it easier to mislead them.
Mz 9y ago
After a certain point, I homeschooled my kids. My oldest likes suffers dyscalculia. He really had a hard time with math in public school. My only goal in math was to get him over his math phobia and teach him "math is your friend." That was it. Any actual math learned was just a bonus. One day, I explained to him that in algebra, X was basically the exact same thing as the empty space in math problems and it made it easier to move it around. Instead of 2+2=_ you could put the "space" anywhere and it was more readable. He had a fit. He realized had been doing algebra in his head for years to, for example, infer how much damage a particular attack did in a video game. And here books made it sound hard and alien and didn't explain it worth shit. Maybe colleges need to up their game. Because Algebra really isn't that hard, but a lot of math is just terribly explained and, then, instead of blaming the materials or the professor, we act like the students are just dumb. Which sucks so very much.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  Definitely. Math is typically taught really, really poorly until at least university. It's not uncommon to find STEM phds who "hated math" before making it to or even past calculus. It's really funny how helpful the "_" or "cloud" trick is for kids. Even high school kids in AP Calculus find it helpful. There is a "hump" where "_" vs. "x" doesn't seem to help much, e.g. where we start working with polynomials as more abstract things and so on. I think the right approach there is to make a lot more use of computer algebra. The point is "here's a generic tool that's useful in lots of specific circumstances", but students get lost during hours of practicing the "useless generic tool" before seeing why that general tool is useful. Computer algebra systems can help there.
parshimers 9y ago
> " First of all, we've seen in the data from many of the pilots across the country that are using alternative math pathways — that are just as rigorous as an algebra course — we've seen much greater success for students because many of these students can relate to these different kinds of math depending on which program of study they're in. They can see how it works in their daily life and how it's going to work in their career. " I remember using this argument a lot when I was a smart-aleck kid, that what should I care about Algebra, because when the heck am I going to use it. It feels like total bunk looking back at it now. I just hadn't seen or appreciated math as something worthwhile in its own right, regardless of application. I maintained that view until I got into more advanced math classes in college. For example the being shown the Cauchy–Schwarz inequality in Linear Algebra for the first time, that was just a total 'Ah-ha!' moment of joy. I really doubt I'd have that impression of that moment if the professor had been trying to demonstrate the immediate, concrete utility of that proof at the same time. I'm not really sure how one can reliably relay onto others the fun in math for its own sake, but it's there. It feels like a cop out to say a particular type of math needs to serve a purpose 'in the real world' instead of just being worthwhile intrinsically, as a fundamental part of reasoning.
armenarmen 9y ago
> Algebra is one of the biggest hurdles to getting a high school or college degree — particularly for students of color and first-generation undergrads. No bigotry of low expectations at play here, none at all.
ivan_ah 9y ago
I think computer algebra systems can play a role in getting to grips on math. In particular SymPy has a very natural API, with the algebra verbs like "simplify", "expand", "factor", "solve", etc. Here is a short printable tutorial for anyone interested: https://minireference.com/static/tutorials/sympy_tutorial.pdf https://minireference.com/static/tutorials/sympy_tutorial.pd...
mnm1 9y ago
They can abandon algebra. So can high schools. But let's be clear on one thing. They will limit their students' future potential severely. If you can't do algebra, you have no chance in hell of ever programming a computer. No chance of doing anything in STEM whatsoever. No chance in finance, business, or any position requiring critical thinking. Yes, if all you're trying is to teach liberal arts majors, this might be an option, though I'm not even sure of that. If you want to prepare students for any kid of future, abandoning algebra is beyond horrible. And we're talking about community colleges here. First and second year students who in many cases have no idea what they really want to do in the world. Do we want to limit students' futures so severely because of our institutions' and teachers' failings at teaching? Why even go to college then? I'm not even sure what these students can excel at if they can't even pass algebra. Maybe manual, hard labor at best.
- relics443 9y ago
  Hi, I have a math learning disorder, which includes algebra. I was never able to grasp the concepts throughout school. I've been programming for 10 years now, and I'm pretty damn good at it if I do say so myself. I'm not advocating dropping algebra, but your statement is a bit sensationalist.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    My bet is either you're actually good at CC level algebra, just don't know it yet (say, bad at notation but good at concepts - try reverse polish notation then), or you're not programming, but putting code together using automated tools.
    - relics443 9y ago
      You'd lose that bet
DrScump 9y ago
Note the explicit premise of this article. It's not merely asking, "should we remove algebra requirements from non-STEM degree programs?". It's asking, "should we remove algebra (courses) from the institution altogether?"
tzs 9y ago
There was an interesting article in the Notices of the AMS (American Mathematical Society) a few years ago by Underwood Dudley called "What is Mathematics For?" [1]. In it he discusses how it is largely mythical that most jobs require knowing anything more than basic arithmetic (and even the need for basic arithmetic is not as solid as most assume). For most that do actually require some math it can usually be taught on the job. Does this mean we should stop widespread teaching of anything beyond basic arithmetic? No. He concludes that what teaching mathematics really does is teach us how to reason. Sure, you have to learn reasoning in other subjects, such as economics or philosophy or physics, but in all of those the reasoning is either about things that have a large component of opinion, or involve a lot of extra real world factual baggage. With mathematics we get to see reasoning in a more pure context, letting us focus on and better learn to understand and use logic. [1] http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf

There was a time when a good Liberal Arts education included Calculus because it was considered one of the great achievements of Western Civilization. The article says, "Their thinking has led to initiatives like Community College Pathways, which strays away from abstract algebra to engage students in real-world math applications." My interpretation of this is that the article authors are math illiterate enough not to know that "abstract algebra" is thing. How sad to think that some people think that community college intermediate algebra is so abstract that people can't get it.

tnecniv 9y ago
> How sad to think that some people think that community college intermediate algebra is so abstract that people can't get it. I agree, but I don't think more motivation is a bad thing. I hated math (even as an engineer) despite being good at it until I was a junior in college. I got interested in high-level math when I saw what some PhD students were doing for research and that inspired me to dig deeper. Now I appreciate math just for the beauty of it. I wish I had this appreciation in high school, but some people just need a good answer for "why?"

jchw 9y ago

A bunch of people who are good at math will defend this. For good reasons, but most likely also just because they love mathematics. But I do kind of question if it's really a good use of everyone's time to learn algebra. For computer science and engineering I can sort of see why you'd want that, but I'll be honest: even in computer science I think most people don't need it. Even when I'm doing algebraic work, it's rarely stuff I learned in a math class. Trig and calculus come more in handy, but unfortunately my day job of writing backend servers does not fundamentally benefit from this. I think many of us could say this. That's not to say there aren't other benefits of studying mathematics, but if it's really not working then I can see why people are just calling to make it optional. No point in making people suffer through apparently ineffective education.

mcphage 9y ago
> But I do kind of question if it's really a good use of everyone's time to learn algebra. There are things taught in it (and in other courses of general math) that probably don't need to be—long division comes to mind—but there are some pretty fundamental mental concepts that I'd hate for people to lack.

0xffff2 9y ago

>So if you're not a STEM major ... why even study algebra? I feel like this is equivalent to saying "if you are a STEM major, why even study writing?" I do some technical writing for work, but absolutely none of the kind of writing I did in my college writing classes. Would anyone, especially a non-STEM major, care to make an argument that the two cases are different?

sillysaurus3 9y ago
People are far more likely to benefit economically from strong communication skills than strong math skills. The vast majority of people go to community college to help themselves economically.
- mjfl 9y ago
  Because basic financial planning doesn't require math...
- kbenson 9y ago
  I'm not sure I buy that. At a minimum, I don't think it's obvious enough to stand without some references or reasoning. Understanding compound interest at a minimum probably provides an immense benefit to those it keeps from making bad assumptions about taking on and getting out of debt.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Strong writing skills are more likely to get you a job. This is anecdotal, but in my experience those who are forced to take math classes rarely benefit from them in the financial sense you're referring to. A financial planning course, on the other hand, would be immensely valuable. People should be forced to take that, not algebra. Knowing how to save money on tax returns, how to calculate a budget, software to manage it all... If school is being used for job training, then I wish it would train that.
    - kermittd 9y ago

maxxxxx 9y ago

I think algebra should be taught in a different way. I remember in school I just didn't get it for more than a year and almost failed math. Then my brother in law gave me a few examples and suddenly it clicked. From then on it was super easy. I think a lot of people who aren't inclined towards math just don't get it because it's taught the wrong way.

indigo0086 9y ago
intuition isn't taught in schools for the most part, most of my math teachers didn't go into proofs or intuitively figuring out mathematical concepts. It's all to get you the right answers on standardized tests. I didn't learn this until well after I graduated from college.

panic 9y ago

Would they even be considering this change without the pressure to increase graduation rates? Even if changing the requirements is the right thing to do, this seems like the wrong reason to do it.

warcher 9y ago

Yeah man, the cure for declining American competitiveness is absolutely dumbing things down even further. The other countries need to respect our dum-dums!

warcher 9y ago
I swear to god NPR spends half their time actively trolling at this point.
bsder 9y ago
Read the article, the goal is to have alternate math courses. And, to be fair, that's probably a GOOD idea. A standard algebra course is a lousy math course if you aren't going any further. Schools used to have a course that was "shop math" aka how to do the things you might have to do in construction, machining, etc. This included elements of algebra, geometry, trig, and statistics. It was a much better match for people who were not going forward to more theoretical math or science.
- warcher 9y ago
  I read and respectfully disagree-- this is college, not high school or trade school. You're not training for diesel engine repair here, you're training for white-collar jobs. Basic algebra is pretty uniformly necessary today, and it isn't becoming less so in the future.
  - bsder 9y ago
    Community college isn't quite that cut and dried. There are quite a few 2-year Associate's degrees that are not "academic". One of the community colleges near me has quite a good nursing program. How much "algebra" will they need vs. procedures for medication dosage calculation? "Algebra" has a lot of dead ends for practical use. A great example is "How do you divide by a fraction?"--a fairly routine algebraic manipulation. Yet, I can't even think of when I have had a real world situation where I had to "divide by a fraction". Multiply by a fraction? Sure. Divide by a whole number? Sure. Calculate a percentage? Sure. Divide by a fraction? Ummmmm. I would argue that algebra is both too advanced in many places AND too sketchy in others. Geometry is something that people need and don't get because it is after algebra that they fail. The worst part is that a lot of people have better geometric intuition than mathematical and would do better to have geometry first. Should they have a math course? Yes. Should it be the pedagogical algebra? Not as obvious.

Spooky23 9y ago

What a disservice for people of color. I get that its NPR and they like to pin a racial angle on many things -- but the need for remedial math, reading and writing education at this level shouldn't be associated with race at all -- its a problem that needs to be solved. Intermediate algebra isn't particularly difficult but requires a moderate level of attention. It's a basic skill expected to exist for many common career paths, including many in community college. If majorities of students cannot hack that, perhaps they aren't prepared to commit to a meaningful education.

wellsjohnston 9y ago

No.

mjfl 9y ago

It took 5 community college students to change 25 light bulbs, how many lightbulbs did each student change on average? I guess they'll never know...

phkahler 9y ago

It sounds like California needs to improve its K-12 education. Any adult who graduated high school should be prepared to pass an algebra class. I tutored math in community college back in the day and I saw people of all ages and all majors and while plenty of them just wanted to do enough to meet the requirements, they all could do it in the end. There may be bias in this because I saw those who sought assistance when they needed it, but maybe that's a behavior that needs to be taught too.

0xffff2 9y ago
As a product of the California K-12 system, I seem to recall being required to pass basic and intermediate algebra in high school. I then signed up for the Army and spent 4 years not doing much math. When I got out and went to sign up for community college, I actually had to take the placement test twice to get a high enough score to skip retaking the exact kind of algebra course talked about in this article.

booleandilemma 9y ago

So coding is the new literacy but we can afford to skimp on the math?

tptacek 9y ago
Yes? Virtually none if the coding that professionals do requires any formal intuition for algebra.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Once you do actual programming instead of guess work, it does. Try evaluating performance of anything without algebra. Or without statistics.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    What specifically are you thinking of wrt performance evaluation and Algebra? I do a lot of that and the statistics requirements are obvious. I'm having less success identifying the algebra.
- pcwalton 9y ago
  I had to learn a lot of linear algebra on the job that I kind of wish I had learned more of in school. Granted, I ended up doing graphics, which is pretty specialized. But I think it's safe to say that the number of programmers who have to know algebra and beyond is more than "virtually none".
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Sure, but that's like someone who programs genetic assays saying you have to learn a lot of molecular biology to program. In the last 5 years I've been working, I've done a bunch of linear algebra for cryptanalysis. But in the 18 years preceding that, zilch.
- gsylvie 9y ago
  I think there's more algebra in frontend development. For example: CSS or SVG gradients, JavaScript animations and fades, the occasional clever data visualization. Heck, even the CSS box model? Backend or frontend, if you use any quantitative metrics in your year-end performance evals, then some algebra is going to be helpful! And you never know what will come up. I was once contracted by a regional government to write some code to correct hourly sensor readings (water levels in wells) based on a monthly manual human reading (ground truth). When it was done my boss remarked, "oh, this is just a linear transformation."

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nanolith 9y ago

The response to low graduation rates can't be to further dumb down the degree. Every functioning adult should understand algebra. I'd actually argue that trigonometry should also be included in this list, but that's probably only useful for adults who build things, and sadly, not very many adults do build things these days. Instead of removing Algebra, we need to consider better ways to teach this subject to people who do not have a lot of the fundamentals in place already. One of the biggest problems with College Algebra is that it assumes a certain level of math literacy that isn't universal. Algebra simply isn't that hard of a subject to master, but it is something that requires a different sort of teaching strategy than is used at the average community college. Give me a motivated adult who understands basic arithmetic, and I can help him or her master algebra in six to eight weeks. We can go from zero to FOIL, and quadratic to partial fraction decomposition in that amount of time. The key is to listen and to instill a level of confidence as early as possible in this process. Many adults consider math to be "hard" -- not from the perspective of it actually being hard, which it is -- but from the perspective of "this is too hard for me to do, because I'm not a math person." Break this mental block, and anyone can do algebra.

plandis 9y ago
Why do you think that every functioning adult should understand algebra?
- trendia 9y ago
  Is it cheaper to buy 1 case of water for $2.50 or 3 cases of water for $9.00 ? If you get a $1,000 loan at 1% interest each month, how much will you owe in 1 year? You can buy a phone for $500 or pay Verizon $16.70 / month for 36 months. Which is cheaper?
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  - bcruddy 9y ago
    > If you get a $1,000 loan at 1% interest each month, how much will you owe in 1 year? Pe = nRT is actually the first thing taught in calc 1.

darawk 9y ago

Our education system is failing! Let's blame the height of the standards.

thedevil 9y ago

Modern Educayshun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM

vpribish 9y ago

Algebra? If you can't understand algebra there is something dreadfully wrong with you mind, your attitude, or your instruction - Questions should be raised and no degree should be awarded. Ok - I guess it depends on what they include in an algebra course. Here is an intermediate algebra course outline (pdf warning): https://www.ccsf.edu/dam/Organizational_Assets/Department/Mathematics/MATH-60-Intermediate-Algebra.pdf https://www.ccsf.edu/dam/Organizational_Assets/Department/Ma... It goes beyond the basics but certainly should be passable by any ordinary person who works at it. This is one of the major things that a degree (any degree) should indicate : this person can work through learning new things. Removing this makes the degree less valuable.

kermittd 9y ago
Hmm I disagree that something is wrong if you can't understand algebra. Something is wrong with a system that make you "learn" information irrelevant to your own life.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  You don't perform "addition, multiplication, addition, and subtraction of rational expressions" in your every-day life? You don't "Identify key features of and sketch graphs" when e.g. planning an expensive purchase or reading the news? No business owner is going to survive if they don't understand how to solve a system of equations (aka figure out feasible pricing before losing all their money). Although we are on a tech VC's news site, so I stand corrected ;-) Being an informed citizen capable of taking care of yourself does require most of the things taught in middle/high school algebra. (Which are the same exact things taught in CC algebra.) A surprising amount of financial suffering is self-imposed by people who can't or won't do very basic math.
  - jshevek 9y ago
    Indeed! Requiring _less_ math is a frightening idea to me, in a system of government in which nearly everyone has the right to vote. Properly understanding even the most basic information that informs policy decisions often requires a more advanced understanding than algebra.

unabridged 9y ago

I think you are lucky to have a high school diploma if you cannot do basic algebra. I don't think we need to extend this academic leniency to associates degrees in science also. Most classes in community college have been dumbed down so much that anyone can pass them by showing up and doing mediocre on a few multiple choice tests. You can just memorize a few definitions and get through without learning anything.

armenarmen 9y ago

Do we want to optimize for the number of degrees issued or for the amount of people that know things?

plandis 9y ago
I wonder if those goals of increasing the amount of general knowledge someone knows is in alignment with the goals of attending community it's college? I'd imagine for a lot of students in community college they care more about getting a job than they do about learning for learnings sake.
- armenarmen 9y ago
  Very fair counter point. I would think that the trade school elements of CC would down the road require some knowledge of algebra though right? Be it nursing, plumbing or carpentry
  - aaachilless 9y ago
    The course in question contains topics like imaginary numbers, sequences/series, and conic sections along with the more practical topics like basic inequalities, graphs of functions, and simple systems of equations. The alternative pathways program seems to swap out these topics for basic topics in probability, statistics, and the like. Seems reasonable to me.
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jeffdavis 9y ago

As I said before: math courses are objective, so they make a reasonable "canary in the coal mine" for a failed education. Maybe you don't need math. But if you can't pass the course, there may be other serious problems. It's easy enough to keep pushing kids/adults forward by redefining success in other subjects. Extra credit, dubious essay standards, grade inflation, etc. We need math to keep the system honest.

cbanek 9y ago

I feel like this is pretty frightening. I thought algebra was basically a high school requirement? Not only do I think everyone should be able to understand basic algebra, they should understand basic statistics and probabilities (which is pretty hard to understand without algebra). These days, not only do people not understand math, but we use numbers and statistics to lie to people and mislead their decision making. Now we seem to just be making it easier to mislead them.

Mz 9y ago

After a certain point, I homeschooled my kids. My oldest likes suffers dyscalculia. He really had a hard time with math in public school. My only goal in math was to get him over his math phobia and teach him "math is your friend." That was it. Any actual math learned was just a bonus. One day, I explained to him that in algebra, X was basically the exact same thing as the empty space in math problems and it made it easier to move it around. Instead of 2+2=_ you could put the "space" anywhere and it was more readable. He had a fit. He realized had been doing algebra in his head for years to, for example, infer how much damage a particular attack did in a video game. And here books made it sound hard and alien and didn't explain it worth shit. Maybe colleges need to up their game. Because Algebra really isn't that hard, but a lot of math is just terribly explained and, then, instead of blaming the materials or the professor, we act like the students are just dumb. Which sucks so very much.

throwawayjava 9y ago
Definitely. Math is typically taught really, really poorly until at least university. It's not uncommon to find STEM phds who "hated math" before making it to or even past calculus. It's really funny how helpful the "_" or "cloud" trick is for kids. Even high school kids in AP Calculus find it helpful. There is a "hump" where "_" vs. "x" doesn't seem to help much, e.g. where we start working with polynomials as more abstract things and so on. I think the right approach there is to make a lot more use of computer algebra. The point is "here's a generic tool that's useful in lots of specific circumstances", but students get lost during hours of practicing the "useless generic tool" before seeing why that general tool is useful. Computer algebra systems can help there.

parshimers 9y ago

> " First of all, we've seen in the data from many of the pilots across the country that are using alternative math pathways — that are just as rigorous as an algebra course — we've seen much greater success for students because many of these students can relate to these different kinds of math depending on which program of study they're in. They can see how it works in their daily life and how it's going to work in their career. " I remember using this argument a lot when I was a smart-aleck kid, that what should I care about Algebra, because when the heck am I going to use it. It feels like total bunk looking back at it now. I just hadn't seen or appreciated math as something worthwhile in its own right, regardless of application. I maintained that view until I got into more advanced math classes in college. For example the being shown the Cauchy–Schwarz inequality in Linear Algebra for the first time, that was just a total 'Ah-ha!' moment of joy. I really doubt I'd have that impression of that moment if the professor had been trying to demonstrate the immediate, concrete utility of that proof at the same time. I'm not really sure how one can reliably relay onto others the fun in math for its own sake, but it's there. It feels like a cop out to say a particular type of math needs to serve a purpose 'in the real world' instead of just being worthwhile intrinsically, as a fundamental part of reasoning.

armenarmen 9y ago

> Algebra is one of the biggest hurdles to getting a high school or college degree — particularly for students of color and first-generation undergrads. No bigotry of low expectations at play here, none at all.

ivan_ah 9y ago

I think computer algebra systems can play a role in getting to grips on math. In particular SymPy has a very natural API, with the algebra verbs like "simplify", "expand", "factor", "solve", etc. Here is a short printable tutorial for anyone interested: https://minireference.com/static/tutorials/sympy_tutorial.pdf https://minireference.com/static/tutorials/sympy_tutorial.pd...

mnm1 9y ago

They can abandon algebra. So can high schools. But let's be clear on one thing. They will limit their students' future potential severely. If you can't do algebra, you have no chance in hell of ever programming a computer. No chance of doing anything in STEM whatsoever. No chance in finance, business, or any position requiring critical thinking. Yes, if all you're trying is to teach liberal arts majors, this might be an option, though I'm not even sure of that. If you want to prepare students for any kid of future, abandoning algebra is beyond horrible. And we're talking about community colleges here. First and second year students who in many cases have no idea what they really want to do in the world. Do we want to limit students' futures so severely because of our institutions' and teachers' failings at teaching? Why even go to college then? I'm not even sure what these students can excel at if they can't even pass algebra. Maybe manual, hard labor at best.

relics443 9y ago
Hi, I have a math learning disorder, which includes algebra. I was never able to grasp the concepts throughout school. I've been programming for 10 years now, and I'm pretty damn good at it if I do say so myself. I'm not advocating dropping algebra, but your statement is a bit sensationalist.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  My bet is either you're actually good at CC level algebra, just don't know it yet (say, bad at notation but good at concepts - try reverse polish notation then), or you're not programming, but putting code together using automated tools.
  - relics443 9y ago
    You'd lose that bet

DrScump 9y ago

Note the explicit premise of this article. It's not merely asking, "should we remove algebra requirements from non-STEM degree programs?". It's asking, "should we remove algebra (courses) from the institution altogether?"

tzs 9y ago

There was an interesting article in the Notices of the AMS (American Mathematical Society) a few years ago by Underwood Dudley called "What is Mathematics For?" [1]. In it he discusses how it is largely mythical that most jobs require knowing anything more than basic arithmetic (and even the need for basic arithmetic is not as solid as most assume). For most that do actually require some math it can usually be taught on the job. Does this mean we should stop widespread teaching of anything beyond basic arithmetic? No. He concludes that what teaching mathematics really does is teach us how to reason. Sure, you have to learn reasoning in other subjects, such as economics or philosophy or physics, but in all of those the reasoning is either about things that have a large component of opinion, or involve a lot of extra real world factual baggage. With mathematics we get to see reasoning in a more pure context, letting us focus on and better learn to understand and use logic. [1] http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf