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I doubt Derek really believes this. At least for me it would be paralyzing to think that I was below average at everything. I assume what he really means is,

by wheels 16y ago

I doubt Derek really believes this. At least for me it would be paralyzing to think that I was below average at everything. I assume what he really means is, "below average in x, but I make up for that with y." I think it'd be hard to have done as well as Derek if you honestly managed to convince yourself that you were below average intelligence, below average skill in your profession, below average ability to motivate yourself and so on. It sounds like he's setting the y to "in being humble and willing to learn from others". Otherwise why would you try anything hard if you believed it to just be a lottery with bad odds? Wouldn't it be better to leave it as an open question so that you're self critical and are able to suss out your own weaknesses?

sivers 16y ago
See the top of http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning The fixed theory of intelligence versus the growth/incremental. You're right: no use to be an Eeyore and assume you're doomed. But if you're dedicated to learning, then assuming you're currently below average keeps you learning harder than if you assume you're most of the way there.
- wheels 16y ago
  The approach I find myself taking is to keep moving the goal posts by putting myself in groups where I genuinely am below average, or at a minimum where there are prominent examples around me of people much better than me at the thing I'm trying to do. There's also something about approaching one's limits that helps distill genuine personal weaknesses and learn to either live with or work around them.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    Excellent comment. I also try to put myself in groups where I genuinely am below average, and I think it accelerates my learning curve. But it's also good to be Top Dog from time to time; the teacher often can learn more than the student.
    - lsc 16y ago
      > But it's also good to be Top Dog from time to time; the teacher often can learn more than the student. Even in those cases, I think there is an advantage to choosing people who have the potential to become better than you are. It's really gratifying to teach someone something, and then watch them grow to the point where they know more than you do on the subject.
  - jeffffff 16y ago
    agreed, deluding yourself into believing that you're below average is about as useful as deluding yourself into believing that you're above average. considering yourself below average at everything is indicative of low self esteem which is really bad for your mental health. a much better approach is to take things you want to be better at, subdivide them into skills that you can actually improve, and then improve those skills. really average has nothing to do with it, as average is usually pretty bad. the average programmer, where a programmer is defined as anyone who has ever written a computer program, is not cut out to be a professional programmer. it is way more important to know your strengths and weaknesses in terms of meeting your goals so you can improve your weaknesses rather than worrying about being average.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    At the end of school (17-18 years old) I was top of my class. I got the best exam results in my town. I expected to breeze Uni, I sailed through the first year and some of the second, breezed some higher (3rd/4th year honours) classes for which I had a natural aptitude. I realised not long after starting that I was more intelligent than some of my class but by no means all but also tellingly lacked their drive and ability to knuckle down. There were several others that were completely out of my league in all aspects. Sadly I'm still kinda there wallowing in that [self-]defeat 12 years on.
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cookiecaper 16y ago
It's not about being below average capacity, it's about believing that your currently-realized capacities are below average and below their limits. It's motivating. It's not about discouragement or not believing you can do something, it's actually the opposite; you know that you can improve in whatever you do so you're not afraid to learn from others. Assuming that you're "below average" in this article merely means to be teachable. It's actually the opposite of what you're talking about here; Derek is not below-average capacity, he just has a lot of capacity yet to be realized and is willing to both admit that and take steps to improve.
baddox 16y ago
The first issue is defining what you mean by "average." What does "average at driving" mean? If you're assigning people a competence percentage, then it's quite possible for a large portion of drivers to be above average (e.g. a thousand drivers that are 75% competent and a hundred drivers that are 25% competent). People often throw out the claim that "remember, half of everyone is below average," which implies a contiguous ordinal ranking for all people, in which case "average" is the same as "median."
yason 16y ago
I think he meant the mindset in general, not exactly the strict meaning or interpretation of the words "below average". I think he meant tackling each problem by assuming that you're below the average and therefore examining and solving it more thoughtfully and carefully than you would if you just knew you're so damn good you don't really have to pay much attention to it. So, how I saw it, it's about emphasizing that you're not quite sure how to solve a problem and, in this, thinking everyone else does makes it easier to remember the meticulousness that you desire.
- sivers 16y ago
  Yes! I love the way you put it. I wish I could have said it like that. :-)
deleted 16y ago
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by wheels 16y ago

sivers 16y ago

See the top of http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning The fixed theory of intelligence versus the growth/incremental. You're right: no use to be an Eeyore and assume you're doomed. But if you're dedicated to learning, then assuming you're currently below average keeps you learning harder than if you assume you're most of the way there.

wheels 16y ago
The approach I find myself taking is to keep moving the goal posts by putting myself in groups where I genuinely am below average, or at a minimum where there are prominent examples around me of people much better than me at the thing I'm trying to do. There's also something about approaching one's limits that helps distill genuine personal weaknesses and learn to either live with or work around them.
- zackattack 16y ago
  Excellent comment. I also try to put myself in groups where I genuinely am below average, and I think it accelerates my learning curve. But it's also good to be Top Dog from time to time; the teacher often can learn more than the student.
  - lsc 16y ago
    > But it's also good to be Top Dog from time to time; the teacher often can learn more than the student. Even in those cases, I think there is an advantage to choosing people who have the potential to become better than you are. It's really gratifying to teach someone something, and then watch them grow to the point where they know more than you do on the subject.
- jeffffff 16y ago
  agreed, deluding yourself into believing that you're below average is about as useful as deluding yourself into believing that you're above average. considering yourself below average at everything is indicative of low self esteem which is really bad for your mental health. a much better approach is to take things you want to be better at, subdivide them into skills that you can actually improve, and then improve those skills. really average has nothing to do with it, as average is usually pretty bad. the average programmer, where a programmer is defined as anyone who has ever written a computer program, is not cut out to be a professional programmer. it is way more important to know your strengths and weaknesses in terms of meeting your goals so you can improve your weaknesses rather than worrying about being average.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  At the end of school (17-18 years old) I was top of my class. I got the best exam results in my town. I expected to breeze Uni, I sailed through the first year and some of the second, breezed some higher (3rd/4th year honours) classes for which I had a natural aptitude. I realised not long after starting that I was more intelligent than some of my class but by no means all but also tellingly lacked their drive and ability to knuckle down. There were several others that were completely out of my league in all aspects. Sadly I'm still kinda there wallowing in that [self-]defeat 12 years on.

deleted 16y ago

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cookiecaper 16y ago

It's not about being below average capacity, it's about believing that your currently-realized capacities are below average and below their limits. It's motivating. It's not about discouragement or not believing you can do something, it's actually the opposite; you know that you can improve in whatever you do so you're not afraid to learn from others. Assuming that you're "below average" in this article merely means to be teachable. It's actually the opposite of what you're talking about here; Derek is not below-average capacity, he just has a lot of capacity yet to be realized and is willing to both admit that and take steps to improve.

baddox 16y ago

The first issue is defining what you mean by "average." What does "average at driving" mean? If you're assigning people a competence percentage, then it's quite possible for a large portion of drivers to be above average (e.g. a thousand drivers that are 75% competent and a hundred drivers that are 25% competent). People often throw out the claim that "remember, half of everyone is below average," which implies a contiguous ordinal ranking for all people, in which case "average" is the same as "median."

yason 16y ago

I think he meant the mindset in general, not exactly the strict meaning or interpretation of the words "below average". I think he meant tackling each problem by assuming that you're below the average and therefore examining and solving it more thoughtfully and carefully than you would if you just knew you're so damn good you don't really have to pay much attention to it. So, how I saw it, it's about emphasizing that you're not quite sure how to solve a problem and, in this, thinking everyone else does makes it easier to remember the meticulousness that you desire.

sivers 16y ago
Yes! I love the way you put it. I wish I could have said it like that. :-)

deleted 16y ago

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