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Model F Keyboards project – Bringing back the buckling spring keyboard
- jaclaz 9y agoPersonally, I still have two spare Model M's (I had three but one died in an accident involving hot coffee), but even among the model M's there are different constructions, the older ones with detachable cable are much better (and heavier) than a few more modern ones (still original IBM model M's) I have seen.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- zevv 9y agoFor those who are not old enough to remember this: https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring
- sjm 9y agoUnicomp[0] have been making Model-F inspired buckling spring keyboards exactly like this for a while. [0]: https://www.pckeyboard.com https://www.pckeyboard.com
- mediaserf 9y agoThese are the keyboards that I use. Love them!
- bryanlarsen 9y agoThose are Model-M keyboards, which have a lot more plastic and less steel.
- braindouche 9y agoStill weighs a ton. And they've been in basically continuous manufacture ever since the old days. And they have full 100+ key layouts with a lot of alternative layouts. And they cost a third of the kickstarted model F. And they have replaceable parts. And they don't ping. And I own and love three of them and I might be biased.
- mdellabitta 9y agoThey're also not quite the same as a vintage Model M in terms of keyfeel or quality. And a Model M is not quite the same as a Model F. I'm typing on a Model M SSK right now, I have a Unicomp in the closet, and one of the keyboards mentioned in the article on order.
- justin66 9y agoTheir PS/2 keyboards are exactly the same - they're genuine Model M keyboards. They even sold some keyboards with the IBM logo (a compact keyboard with the IBM logo, which sucked because of the goofy layout), so they must have bought some inventory in addition to the tooling from IBM. There's a big caveat, though: not all Model M keyboards were the same, so the comparison might or might not ring true depending on what Model M you used. For example, the one that came with my PS/2 Model 50z back in the day was heavier and sturdier than some of the ones that IBM made later, and had a removable cable. The Unicomp stuff compares to what IBM was making immediately before they gave up on the whole business, I think. Then Unicomp eventually made some USB keyboards, which turned out not to be the greatest... And yeah, the Model F was a completely different thing entirely. (edit: in truth, I haven't bought anything there in a little over nine years, wow... their Classic 101 still looks pretty legit)
- mdellabitta 9y agoYeah, my SSK is an '87. There's definite differences in terms of weight and key wobble, and the keycaps on the Unicomp are less sturdy. Plus I do actually have a USB model, and it can be flaky and require a replug at startup. And the pointing stick has different sensitivity based on which direction you're going, which makes it worthless. Also, I just like the tenkeyless layout. The benefit to a new Model F is I'll never have to worry about needing to do a bolt mod, and you can actually move the barrels around to a different layout if you want to. Plus, with the XWhatsit controller, you can program it and have layers and whatnot, and bug-free USB. And the case is metal. The Unicomp stuff is comparable, but I think it's a reach to say it's totally the same.
- 0xcde4c3db 9y agoIIRC Unicomp bought the actual tooling and design files for the Model M, work with some of the same contract manufacturers as IBM/Lexmark, and just didn't spring for the trademarks to be able to market it as "the" Model M.
- teuobk 9y agoAm I the only one who never liked those clicky, long-throw mechanical keyboards? I much prefer the very short throws of laptop-style keyboards, particularly the Logitech K750. That's not to say I like mushy keys. I just don't like having to press very hard or very far for a keystroke to register.
- softawre 9y agoI am with you. It's funny, right now I have two keyboards in front of me, a Razer Blackwidow mech for Windows/gaming and a K750 for work on the mac. For work I much prefer the K750.
- FRex 9y agoSame. I absolutely love the built in keyboard in my MSI PE60 6QD (kinda a gamer's laptop) and I never liked mechanical long throw noisy ones.
- arethuza 9y agoSame - I've always loathed clicky keyboards.
- xienze 9y agoNope. I've used Model M keyboards for a loooong time and I think they're highly overrated. Loud as hell and really fatigue your fingers. Cherry MX switches really are better.
- serf 9y agoit provides a tactile sensation that I personally enjoy. I find it similar to loading a gun, or shifting a manual transmission, or attaching a lens on an SLR style camera, or opening a well-built safe, or opening the door to a heavy luxury sedan. There is some sort of mechanical response and feedback that modern keyboards somehow lack. It's hard to describe. Good modern mechanical keyboards come close, though. I have no delusions that model M style keyboards are superior; I just like the way they feel.
- jkaptur 9y ago
- melling 9y agoHow about a little more innovation in keyboards? It is 30 years later. Split keyboards? https://shop.keyboard.io https://shop.keyboard.io Tenting capable? Add a Soli chip? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNiZfSsPc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNiZfSsPc0
- falcolas 9y agoLike beds, people aren't usually willing to spend lots of money on a good keyboard. It's unfortunate, especially considering how much time you spend typing on one. But the moment you start talking mechanical switches, your keyboard is going to be above the hundred dollar mark (knock-offs notwithstanding). Split the keyboard, another two hundred dollars. Throw in something like Soli, and you're looking at a thousand dollar keyboard. How many people would be willing to pay over a thousand dollars for a good keyboard?
- Sorreah 9y agoIs there any good reason why splitting a hundred dollar keyboard would have to cost three times as much? Anyway, I paid 30 euros for my last mechanical (with rgb lighting) shipped to my door. Patent expiration is a beautiful thing.
- falcolas 9y agoExtra controllers (and PCBs), cabling to connect the two halves, extra plastic for the housing... there are definite real costs involved. However, once you're above a hundred dollars you're in a niche market anyways, so why not charge more boutique prices? I imagine this is the real explanation for the price. As for patent expiration - yeah, it can be a beautiful thing for prices, but I'm still quite leery of picking up a cheap keyboard; quality parts that last (and more importantly behave consistently through their lifespan) still cost money.
- m3Lith 9y agoAnd what that secret model is?
- 9y ago
- cholantesh 9y agoThe original title is pretty clickbaity (which, I suppose, is fitting). The switches are great, but so long as your arms are forced together as they are by most keyboards, you are still doing untold damage to your upper body. I'll stick with my Kinesis Advantage.
- randlet 9y agoI use a Kinesis Freestyle, but yeah I agree. It's hard to overstate how much better my wrists, elbows and shoulders feel after switching to a split keyboard years ago.
- arvinsim 9y agoErgodox and Mistel exists for those who like mechanical keyboards.
- dwringer 9y agoIt really is amazing how much of a difference that contour style makes - I picked one up for long stretches of coding when I otherwise tend to develop "hunched-over-the-computer" syndrome. The pressure relief on the chest and shoulders is immense and it's hard not to have good posture when using it. It was so effective that I don't even need it anymore (is that ironic?), except now and then when sitting at a desk all day starts to feel uncomfortable.
- jdcarter 9y agoI appreciate the effort that people are putting into the switches themselves, but agreed, updating the layout is where the real gains are found. I've used Kinesis keyboards for 20 years--I now own four of them of various vintage--and I'm surprised they never found broader adoption. There's so many benefits: - Key well is cupped so all key rows are near-equal distance; you don't need to move your hand around. - Key columns are vertical, no angular stretches for your fingers. - Modifiers are right under your thumbs, no hand movement required. Emacs users rejoice! - You can remap those keys under your thumbs. I remapped one to control-space ("set mark" in emacs), which is lovely. Adaptation really isn't that hard. Unlike "big" changes such as switching to Dvorak layout, adapting to the Kinesis Advantage doesn't take much training. It took me about 2 weeks to get back to speed, and much of that was because I was a sloppy typist when I switched. (The Kinesis pretty much forces you to touch type correctly.) By contrast, switching to Dvorak took me about 2 months. EDIT: for completeness, a couple disadvantages of the Kinesis: 1) Escape key is not mechanical, it's on a row of gummy-feeling function keys. vi/vim users will probably want to remap one of the thumb keys to escape. 2) It's not great for gaming, I still use a traditional-layout mechanical keyboard for games.
- kps 9y agoModel F buckling springs were still a cost-reduced inferior replacement for beam springs¹, which themselves were a decent but imperfect attempt to imitate the best key feel in the history of the universe, the Selectric. ¹ https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_spring https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_spring Edit: It's not entirely correct to blame cost-reduction alone for the end of the beam springs. ISO 9241 killed the existing beam spring switches, and making the replacements equally good (or better — they did suffer from wobble) would have been expensive.
- efm 9y agoWhat mechanism did the Selectric use?
- dwringer 9y ago"When the typist presses a key, a pawl on the key lever depresses a matching metal bar (interposer) for that key. The interposer, which is oriented front to back in the machine, has one or more short projections (lugs) protruding from its bottom edge. Each interposer has a unique combination of lugs, corresponding to the binary code for the desired character. Each interposer also has a tab that slots in between loose steel balls in a race, the size of balls and race selected precisely to leave a total gap barely larger than the width of the interposer tab, such that only one interposer tab can fit in the free space and thus only one letter can be selected at a time." [1][2] Not exactly comparable to the one on a modern PC, I guess. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter#Selectric_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter#Selec... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTjxwVfx8GA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTjxwVfx8GA
- kps 9y agoThe Selectric feel was particularly good in a few ways: - it had a very light pre-pre-travel of a millimetre or so, providing distinct touching-but-not-pressing feedback; - the force drop at the tactile snap point was so high it felt like the keyboard was actively trying to help you type; - the post-travel was long and gradual enough that even an aggressive operator like me wouldn't normally bottom out. IBM beam springs got part of the way by using two springs (one of them two-piece). Another spring or two, or some nonlinear springs, could probably do better.
- jdlyga 9y agoWe're either going for almost completely flat keyboards like the new Macbooks, or the clickiest most obtuse mechanical keyboards. Why can't we have a good compromise?
- hocuspocus 9y agoThere are literally dozens of good compromises available nowadays compared to a decade ago, where high-end keyboards were just a niche.
- mark-r 9y agoHere's a comment from a couple of months ago that pointed out a silent mechanical keyboard. Despite my exclamation I haven't picked one up yet. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14394268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14394268
- swampangel 9y agoYou made a good choice, because the current version of those switches has a problem with repeated keystrokes: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4t08br/kbparadise_v60_matias_quiet_key_chatter_issue/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4t08br... https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5qjsbn/so_does_matias_just_pretend_it_doesnt_have_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5qjsbn... However, they are very nice to type on, and Matias is supposedly producing a new version of the switch.
- amelius 9y agoI liked the Sun Microsystems Type 5 keyboard.
- cannam 9y agoMy favourite as well. I have one on my desk here. (It was £17 on eBay a few years ago. The USB converter for it was a lot more expensive than the keyboard.) There's a problem though. The Type-5 used to be one of the quieter workstation keyboards, and it's far less noisy than a Model M, but the flat keyboards of today are so much quieter than any of those used to be that I can no longer use it in an open plan office without feeling conspicuous. I'm not sure whether it does annoy my colleagues (they are very polite) but I do feel uncomfortable about it and as a consequence it doesn't get as much use as I might like.
- tga 9y agoGood news, you can also make your own Type 5 adapter using an Arduino. Check out this great project: https://github.com/benr/SunType5_ArduinoAdapter https://github.com/benr/SunType5_ArduinoAdapter.
- mamcx 9y agoIf wanna go into the rabbit hole of mech keyboards, visit this: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ --- I'm already building a pseudo-MS Ergo keyboard, waiting for the plates.
- Elvewyn 9y agoAfter I accidentally killed my Poker II (no more iced tea near my desk, I learned my lesson), I decided to buy a kit. Very excited to put it all together.
- exabrial 9y agoI can't think of a more productive way to annoy your coworkers! I kid... But really! My first computer was an XT, than an AT. At the time, I could type faster than the screen could scroll! I'd like to think part of that was that awesome DIN connector keyboard!
- rietta 9y agoI was hoping that the model F was the one with the function keys on the left. But alas, no.
- lproven 9y agoExactly! What is the point of recreating something _resembling_ a Model F but that doesn't have the same layout? Ctrl to the left of A, Caps Lock out of the way at lower right (in just the right position to be remapped as RAlt or Compose). What thought process goes "we'll recreate this classic device but we'll remove just a couple of the features that make it distinctive"? How is that ever going to be a recipe for success?
- rietta 9y agoIf I hadn't just bought a Ergodox EZ I would be all over this. I don't think my wife would forgive me for a month if I bought another keyboard right now. I already owe her decorating her office because of this last one. She doesn't appreciate why my odd keyboards are a critical, work related investment.
- neves 9y agoI really love my Model M. Unfortunately, the cable is rotten and the small manufacturer doesn't deliver it to Brazil. Buying a new one would be weird since Brazil standard keyboard is the only one that puts 14 keys in the row above the space bar. Now I have 3 unused Model M in my house. Very sad :-(
- derekp7 9y agoIf you look under the shift keys, there are spacers in the spots where the extra keys would go. The pad is actually active under it. So what you can do is pop the plastic rivets that hold the metal back plate on to the plastic frame, and replace them with small screws/nuts (do a google search for "Model M bolt modification"). Once you get it apart, you can take out the spacers, and replace it with pivot plates, then you can put an appropriate key in the spot (from a dead keyboard, for example).
- unguku 9y agoIf the Brazilian Model M uses the same cable as the US Model M then I'd be happy to send a cable your way. Feel free to reach out if you're interested (email's in my profile) and we can confirm whether the cables match.
- skocznymroczny 9y agoI've bought into the hype and used a blue switch mechanical keyboard for six months, but now I'm switching back to rubber dome/chiclet. Unfortunately I can't type on tall mechanical keyboards and it was killing my wrists. The keys also felt too hard to press for my taste. One of my favourite keyboards right now is Apple full-sized keyboard. I might even buy it for my Windows PC.
- strictnein 9y agoAgreed on the Apple full-sized keyboard. I use one on Windows, and the only thing I miss is the lack of a Print Screen key and volume control. I get over the first by using the built in Snipping Tool. I get over the volume controls by using AutoHotKey. If you go the AutoHotKey route, this script will get you Volume and mute functionality by using the Command and F10, F11, and F12 keys (the standard audio control function keys). #F12::Send {Volume_Up} ; Raise the master volume #F11::Send {Volume_Down} ; Lower the master volume #F10::Send {Volume_Mute} ; Mute/unmute.
- hocuspocus 9y agoBlue Cherry MX switches have a pretty low actuation force: they're lighter than most rubber domes and scissor switches. If you had wrist pain it sounds like your keyboard is too high indeed, but it's not a tall keyboard that is the issue here (and we're talking about 2-3 cm tall...), lower your desk!
- chiph 9y agoFind a keyboard that has a built-in palm rest - they help you get your hands into the right position. If you can find a "wrist rest" that is made from the heavy open-cell foam (usually with a decorative cloth cover), they're good. The squishy gel-filled ones don't provide enough support. For rubber-dome switches, look at the Lenovo Preferred Pro USB. For mechanical switches, there's an upcoming model from dasKeyboard (the 5Q) that looks like it'll have one (the prototype in their video doesn't have it, but the product renderings does)
- fimdomeio 9y agoThe only problem I have with the keyboards is that than my laptop monitor is to far away from me.
- takleizo 9y agoI usually lay my keyboard over the laptop keys, and disable the built-in keyboard - maybe that's something that would work for you too?
- atemerev 9y agoMy first PC was an IBM PC/AT, complete with original Model M keyboard (model F is the same, but more compact). I remember it well; I'd say it is somewhat overrated. Activation force threshold is too high; it is LOUD (and even if it doesn't bother you, the sound itself starts to be pretty annoying after 2-3 weeks), etc. Designing a good keyboard is a subtle art. I still prefer mechanicals, but I haven't found anything that worked perfectly for me.
- bcg1 9y agoArticle is a little misleading... you don't need "extensive modification" to use a Model F keyboard with a modern computer... the Model F AT keyboard can plug directly into a PS/2 port and be used as-is: https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F#IBM_Personal_Computer_AT_keyboard https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F#IBM_Personal_Comput... This article seems to be about a business that is actually re-engineering the Model F to be more modern... which is certainly interesting and impressive, but the article is a little misleading. One really nice feature of these keyboards is that they use capacitance sensing to detect when a key is actuated, instead of a matrix of columns and rows, so there is no ghosting effect when multiple keys are pressed. If you disassemble the keyboard you can actually type right on the PCB with your fingers like a touchpad.
- swampangel 9y agoThe keyboards they're copying are based on the IBM 4704 rather than the PC AT keyboard http://kishy.ca/?p=894 http://kishy.ca/?p=894 It's more desirable because its layouts are a bit closer to modern 60/80% keyboards, but it doesn't have an AT interface.
- bcg1 9y agoTrue enough, I just think it is a bit misleading to act as if that is somehow the colloquial Model F Keyboard when really they are recreating a pretty obscure keyboard relative to the XT or AT Model f's.
- mikejmoffitt 9y agoThe Model F only registers key down events, and can't report a key-up. I don't want that ever again. Unlike many other aspects of old computer peripherals and designs, there's no tangible advantage to this limitation.
- gcoda 9y agoIt makes me angry, modern keyboards still have rows with half-key offset, why? "Ortholinear" are not problematic for casual typists, and makes typing with all 10 fingers a lot easier.
- velebak 9y agoDon't forget Unicomp's been around for a while. https://www.pckeyboard.com/ https://www.pckeyboard.com/ All they brought back was a zinc case?