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A decentralized Bitcoin exchange
- brian_herman 9y agoWho enforces it?
- placeybordeaux 9y agoLooks like third party arbitration. Guessing it ends up being reputation enforced.
- xur17 9y agoIt looks like this is only required for withdrawing to a national currency (USD, EUR, etc). Being able to trade between altcoins trustlessly is pretty neat.
- Jaepa 9y agoAs there is no concept of arbitrator reputation, it makes no sense to deselect arbitrators, as this will only reduce his trading possibilities. Traders will only be able to take offers of users with whom they have at least one overlapping selected arbitrator - http://bitsquare.io/arbitration_system.pdf http://bitsquare.io/arbitration_system.pdf
- cocktailpeanuts 9y agoJust finished watching their video and got nothing other than "Read our white paper if you're interested", plus bunch of buzzwords. Why make the video at all? If I were them I would scrap all the bullshit and just spend the two minutes in the video explaining the basics of WHY and HOW it works. People visiting that site already know what a "decentralized bitcoin exchange" is.
- xiphias 9y agoIt helps a lot to understand what it does exactly and how, and we can see the development status (usable, but needs lots of cleanup) before installing the app.
- quickthrower 9y agoFrom the readme I'm getting that you find someone to buy Bitcoins from. Agree with them a method of payment. Buy coins. For added protection appoint an arbitration person and set up escrow using multi sigs. A bit like gumtree for Bitcoin?
- bkolobara 9y agoI felt the same way. There are so many open questions after watching the video. How do I get my Euros to someone selling me bitcoin? Is there a central bank account everyone deposits the money? Some cryptocurrencies like Stellar have a built-in decentralised exchange[1]. They solve the problem of getting fiat into the system through anchors[2]. I wonder if there is a better way. [1] https://www.stellar.org/developers/guides/concepts/exchange.html https://www.stellar.org/developers/guides/concepts/exchange.... [2] https://www.stellar.org/developers/guides/concepts/assets.html#anchors-issuing-assets https://www.stellar.org/developers/guides/concepts/assets.ht...
- meapistol 9y agoYou send fiat money to the trading peer using e. g. SEPA, OKPay, national bank transfer, ClearXchange and some other methods. There is no central bank account and Bisq does not control any money and can thus not steal any money.
- amingilani 9y agoTheir Github README is more descriptive By running Bisq on their local machines, users form a peer-to-peer network. Offers to buy and sell bitcoin are broadcast to that network, and through the process of offering and accepting these trades via the Bisq UI, a market is established. There are no central points of control or failure in the Bisq network. There are no trusted third parties. When two parties agree to trade national currency for bitcoin, the bitcoin to be bought or sold is held in escrow using multisignature transaction capabilities native to the bitcoin protocol. Because the national currency portion of any trade must be transferred via traditional means such as a wire transfer, Bisq incorporates first-class support for human arbitration to resolve any errors or disputes.
- nothrabannosir 9y agoAsterisks around the block, no spaces indent. The latter is for mono space which is illegible on mobile.
- dragonwriter 9y ago> The latter is for mono space which is illegible on mobile. Well, it's more the “explicit line breaks only” part of code formatting, rather than the monospacing, which makes it unreadable on mobile.
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- echan00 9y agoWhile I know nothing about this project or the creators, I find your comment very ignorant. If you don't like it, go do something else of your own. At least the creators spent time and effort doing something they find valuable. That's 100x better than your comment.
- softawre 9y agoOP is providing feedback on the project just like you are providing feedback on OP's comment.
- EpicEng 9y agoI'm not sure I understand your position. "ignorance" and criticism are two different things. I'm assuming you missed the word here. Secondly, do you feel there's no room for criticism just because something is provided for free? To me, the grandparents criticism is valid. Maybe it doesn't tell the whole story, I don't know, but it's a concern that deserves an answer. Any reasonable maintainer would welcome valif criticism; this is the process we use to make improvements. This is how software works in general (build something, show consumers, gather feedback, iterate) and literally how all of science works (peer review.) Again, I don't understand your comment at all. I find your last sentence ironic in that your comment provides exactly zero value to a reader of this thread.
- echan00 9y agoFair enough, not worth more discussion.
- stephengillie 9y agoWasn't Bitcoin supposed to be decentralized in the first place? What's a "decentralized" decentralized currency, anyway?
- omarchowdhury 9y agoExchanges aren't decentralized.
- OJFord 9y agoYou've deliberately omitted the crucial word: exchange. Bitcoin is decentralised, but one can choose to trade it for dollars, et al., at e.g. Bitstamp.
- benjaminmbrown 9y agoEtherdelta has been doing this for ERC20 tokens for some time: https://etherdelta.github.io/ https://etherdelta.github.io/
- divislight 9y agoERC-20 == scamcoin. Very different from this.
- seibelj 9y agoAn ERC20 token is a token that conforms to the ERC20 protocol, that's all that ERC20 means.
- nosuchthing 9y agoAre there currently any ERC tokens with applicable utility other than wild speculation and claims about unproven future features which the ERC20 tokens are created in completely arbitrary (artificial scarcity, sidestepping SEC IPO investments) limited amounts for?
- SeoxyS 9y agoNumeraire for example (NMR) is a ERC-20 token which has a real-world application today.
- atomical 9y agoYou can say that about 99% of the ICO's. That doesn't make them good investments.
- _coldfire 9y agoIf some of these projects go on to produce open source software of worth it won't all be for nothing. Associating the ERC-20 protocol with the current mania and nonsense of cryptocurrencies doesn't seem fair. It's simply a method of creating a sub-currency, which yes is often unnecessary but marketing is a powerful force so it happens. Having seen small rural communities try and fail to create their own local currency years ago it's only a matter of time before some try again digitally.
- Jaepa 9y agoThis is interesting, but I could see some possible issues. It would be fun to ask the Devs some questions. eg: if peers are able to select their arbitrators, how do you prevent a peer and & arbitrator from gaming the system. There is a secondary arbitrator but from the docs it looks like after the initial arbitration the funds are released. Is there a way to protect against root DHT node hijack? Only refernce I see to this is a TODO: See how btc does this.
- oelmekki 9y ago> if peers are able to select their arbitrators, how do you prevent a peer and & arbitrator from gaming the system Actually, it doesn't even need a criminal association : what if arbitrator is malicious? FAQ answers both our questions : https://bisq.io/faq/#8 https://bisq.io/faq/#8 and https://bisq.io/faq/#10 https://bisq.io/faq/#10 The defense mechanism chosen is to make arbitrators pay a high registration fee, so that it would supposedly cost them more to trick the system than they would win (because of the 1btc trade limit). To be noted is that current arbitrators are handpicked by founders, but they want it to be fully decentralized ultimately. What is not addressed is this : if arbitrator management is fully decentralized, how will people be triggering their safety payment if they do something bad? Will there be some kind of a vote or something? How much time would it takes? (because if it's long enough, malicious arbitrator can steal money from several trades and outperform their safety deposit). It seems like the hardest part to decentralize, and I don't think it's addressed well enough yet.
- ManfredKarrer 9y agoGood questions: See the new concept for securing the arbitration system by the DAO tokens: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DXEVEfk4x1qN6QgIcb2PjZwU4m7W6ib49wCdktMMjLw https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DXEVEfk4x1qN6QgIcb2PjZwU... In short: The arbitrator will have to lockup a high amount of BSQ (DAO tokens)and in case he would default that deposit can get confiscated by voting. He also is limited to do not more than 20 cases.
- ManfredKarrer 9y agoYes the trader can select his arbitrator. The arbitration system got a conceptual change with the upcoming DAO and will be secured by locked up security deposit of the arbitrator as well as an introduction of a mediator who will cover most cases and who has no key to the 2of3 MS. See: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DXEVEfk4x1qN6QgIcb2PjZwU4m7W6ib49wCdktMMjLw https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DXEVEfk4x1qN6QgIcb2PjZwU... Most arbitration cases are customer care cases and there have been actually no real dispute at all where the traders delivered conflicting statements. We use PageSigner/TLSNotary (https://tlsnotary.org/ https://tlsnotary.org/) for the case that traders have a real dispute. With that we can get a tamper evident proof if the bank transfer took place. WE don't use a DHT but a custom P2P network based on a floodfill algorithm. All traffic is routed over Tor and each node is a hidden service.
- equalunique 9y agoInteresting. Previously, the only incarnation of this idea was, to my knowledge, NVO: https://nvo.io/ https://nvo.io/
- Paul_S 9y agoAnd it went awfully quiet after the ico. I hate myself for using words like ico in every day speech. This the 80s all over again except with shittier music.
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- dharma1 9y agoCoould you have a decentralised p2p fiat <-> ETH exchange with a smart contract and PayPal, where the sold ETH is being held on the smart contract until PayPal transfer from buyer to seller is verified by the smart contract? Like localbitcoin but no need to meet up
- patio11 9y agoPaypal will never cooperate this, because the service is selling money laundering. Without Paypal's cooperation, you can't guarantee that a transaction presently honored by Paypal will not be reversed in the future, for reasons including "the buyer, who legitimately controlled the Paypal account at time of transaction, decided to defraud the seller" and "the buyer, who has credentials for X,000 Paypal accounts obtained by hacking, does not have the authority to commit either the Paypal account or Paypal to a transaction."
- dharma1 9y agoIf the traffic to PayPal confirming the transaction wasn't from a centralised server, PayPal would have no way of differentiating between an ETH sale or any other transaction, so their cooperation might not be needed. Reversal - might be better solutions but couldn't the smart contract escrow simply have a timer built in that would allow the fiat receiver to move the money out of his PayPal account, thus preventing reversal? I'm just running with a half-baked idea, but it feels like it could work. Doesn't need to be PayPal, could be any fiat transaction provider that has an API that allows confirmation of the fiat transfer that the smart contract can access
- Sleeep 9y agoYou can't prevent reversal by withdrawing from a PayPal account. PayPal cooperation is needed because they shut down accounts that appear to be breaking their rules.
- olegkikin 9y agoThis will not work, because regular bank wire transfers and cash deposits have been reversed in the past, the sender simply claimed hacked account or fraud. Examples: https://medium.com/@TheAlexGalaxy/why-i-m-suing-td-canada-trust-for-20-123-btc-e3435a299fac https://medium.com/@TheAlexGalaxy/why-i-m-suing-td-canada-tr... https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/6guhxz/i_took_a_direct_deposit_as_payment_for_bitcoins/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/6guh... https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zruvf/warning_cash_deposits_can_be_reversed_at_bank_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zruvf/warning_cas... https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1sglge/the_bank_are_about_to_reverse_my_sale_for_3500/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1sglge/the_bank_ar...
- gfody 9y agostill not a bad alternative to localbitcoins.com, you could arrange to exchange cash in person or mail money orders around which could still be cancelled if the escrow fails.
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- kinnth 9y agoI get it. I like it, but I wouldn't use it just yet. I think the fees charged by most exchanges are low enough for me not to worry. Also there is a large amount of legal bureaucracy now happening over real money exchanges, how might that affect it?
- mattbeckman 9y agoHow does this differ from BitShares that's been around a long time? https://bitshares.org/ https://bitshares.org/
- Method-X 9y agoThe assets traded on the bitshares exchange are derivatives backed by the value of the BTS token. This is how counterparty risk is eliminated. Bitsquare is like openbazaar but only for cryptocurrency. Personally, I'm very skeptical the approach will work in practice.
- Uptrenda 9y agoIt may have changed since the last time I used this, but here's how it works: 1. There are two sides to a trade, Alice and Bob. 2. Alice has USD and Bob has Bitcoins. 3. Both sides wish to trade money but they don't trust each other. 4. To do this, they deposit collateral in the form of Bitcoins into a escrow account (multiple mediators need to sign to give back the collateral to their owners.) This is a bond separate from the money they are already trading. 5. Alice sends her USD to Bob. 6. Bob sends his Bitcoins to Alice. 7. If either side cheated the mediators won't sign the "check" to release funds from the Escrow account. Therefore, so long as the value of the collateral is worth more than their potential profit from scamming -- there is no incentive to scam. In BitSquare step 4 I think is done with third-party mediators and the mediators make decisions based on evidence. So first, how do you prove that a user sent Bitcoin: easy, its on the blockchain. Second, how do you prove that a user sent USD? Well, I believe BitSquare uses something called "TLS Notaries" -- this allows a person to cryptographically prove that an SSL website was in their browser, potentially enabling a person to prove that they sent funds. As you can see this scheme has a few problems: 1. Users are required to have Bitcoins for collateral. So if you don't already have Bitcoins you can't buy any (strange scenario.) 2. It relies on collateral, period, so you can never buy and sell the full amount of funds that you have. 3. Liquidity is poor. BitSquare could be improved if they had more investors and structured the exchange to provide liquidity themselves at a premium. 4. It's unclear how secure the notaries are and whether or not it can be cheated. 5. Reputation isn't that secure and the model doesn't account for attackers, though I think BitSquare solves this with multiple mediators. Another option to solve the same problem is to use micro-payment channels. A service would have credit that represented a USD balance and micro-amounts of this balance would be sent to the recipient as the sender receives micro-amounts of Bitcoin. This is a better model, IMO, but still can potentially be reversed. It's good to see that BitSquare is still around though. Decentralized exchanges haven't had much adoption so far and I haven't seen anyone who nailed every usability problem that these exchanges have. Even assets on Ethereum where you can literally write simple code that says "a transfer occurs if two users agree to it" are traded on "decentralized exchanges" with multiple vulnerabilities and bad UX for traders.
- tgb 9y ago
- gragas 9y agoThis is going to get so destroyed but HFT strategies. A million already come to mind.
- julian_1 9y agoHow so? HFT generally provides liquidity and is arguably a good thing, for people wanting to execute infrequent trades, on otherwise thin volume markets.
- contingencies 9y agoFiat transfer systems are typically unreliable. They can be intercepted, halted, delayed, reversed, and generally cannot be considered objectively predictable, with a wide variety of unique and nontrivial failure modes - not all of which are recoverable - and no objective SLA / service description. The problem with assuming good faith and using actor reputation (even third-party arbitrated) is that, in becoming a trusted actor, the amount of money available for cut-and-run scenarios increases exponentially (both for arbitrator and actor), until it ultimately makes sense and happens (eg. numerous scam darknet markets, etc.)... often the claim is "sorry we got hacked!" Using real world user identities as insurance has the issue that using one's fiat bank account to perform automated or semi-automated trades on behalf of others is probably dubious to against terms of service, or at a minimum vaguely arguably so when politically expedient. Therefore, revealing the real world user identity of an accused bad actor (ie. fiat account holder) as an insurance against bad behavior is likely to expose them to an undue scale of legal hassle and/or asset seizure, which is not something wise to trust a third party with no matter how trustworthy the arbitrators are supposed to be. My gut feeling is that such systems work only at small scale, with a veneer of trust that can be established in different ways: deposit is placed with counterparty, reputation within some shared community, mafia boss will murder you if you rip off the system, etc. Between absolute strangers, it is exceptionally difficult to reliably scale, even if you can establish it. Finally, an important point is that frequent <1BTC transfer activity to random destinations on conventional fiat accounts are likely to trigger bank anti money laundering (AML) heuristics.
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- em3rgent0rdr 9y agoI feel there is already a decentralized exchange: openbazaar. That has the advantage of a decentralized reputation system and a head start in network effects.
- Animats 9y agoThe fundamental problem with this is the same problem Ethereum has - the hooks to the real world aren't very good. Making them better implies trusting a third party. If you have to trust a third party, why do you need this?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- giergirey 9y agoYes, that's been my worry with many blockchain projects - it all sounds great until it needs to interface with the messy real-world. But - regardless of the merits of this particular project - I think there is still some benefit in having a decentralised cryptocurrency exchange even if it doesn't totally eliminate the need for trust. Provided it reduces the scope of what needs to be trusted, or makes it easier to audit, or reduces how often it needs to be trusted, then that's still an improvement. Suppose you want to sell some ethereum-based FOO tokens for US Dollars in your bank account. Now, you could trust a centralised exchange to do the whole thing and hope they don't get hacked / run off with your money / steal your identity docs / take weeks to verify you / get shut down by regulators. And cough up the 0.25% fees. Or, with a decentralised exchange, you can split your problem into two problems: 1. finding someone willing to exchange your Ethereum FOO token for an Ethereum tethered-USD token 2. finding someone willing to exchange Ethereum tethered-USD tokens for bank account USD. Part 1 is purely Ethereum-based, and this is where competition should drive fees down to near-zero. Because a smart-contract can run this, there's almost no need to trust - this can be done on-chain. Part 2 is where you have a point - there is still some trust required. But we don't need to trust the tethered-USD processor in Part 2 nearly as much as a full-fledged exchange - and they're easier to audit. There's also a lot less to go wrong - they're not dealing with lots of different crypto-currencies and networks, all they have to do is burn Ethereum tethered-USD tokens in exchange for real USD in a bank account. Fees should be lower, you'd hope. Also, eventually we might get to the point where part 2 isn't needed - if you can spend tethered-USD tokens in enough places, why would you need banking-system-USD? Disclaimer: I'm involved with the https://ubitok.io https://ubitok.io decentralised Ethereum exchange so I do have a bit of a vested interest in decentralised exchanges! Would love to hear some counter opinions though ..
- runeks 9y agoThe fundamental problem is that practically all exchanges are credit-based, and decentralized credit doesn't make sense. When you want to purchase bitcoins on an exchange, you start out by depositing e.g. dollars on the exchange, thus converting your dollars to that exchange's dollar token (IOU x USD). You then sell your dollar tokens for bitcoin tokens on the exchange, which is super fast because it centrally controls token ownership, and when you want to get your bitcoins out you sell/redeem your BTC tokens for actual BTC. This system, which is how all large exchanges work, is inherently centralized, because it uses a central debitor (owes USD/BTC to customers) to handle token ownership, which works really well because it puts no limit on performance (as opposed to a system where we use a blockchain to define ownership). One partial solution is to separate the debitor (funds holder) from the actual exchange: instead of exchanges issuing their own tokens (bitstampBTC, bitfinexUSD, mtggoxBTC, etc.), there would be dedicated issuers (lots of them), and an exchange would constitute a central meeting place, which accepts a specific set of issuers, and to whom people can sign over their tokens in order to engage in a trade. So, for example, a buy order would constitute signing over a token worth the buy order's value to the exchange, which immediately matches it with a sell order, swaps the owner of the matched tokens (after deducting a small fee), and sends the tokens to the buyer and seller.
- oelmekki 9y ago> When you want to purchase bitcoins on an exchange, you start out by depositing e.g. dollars on the exchange, thus converting your dollars to that exchange's dollar token (IOU x USD). You then sell your dollar tokens for bitcoin tokens on the exchange, which is super fast because it centrally controls token ownership, and when you want to get your bitcoins out you sell/redeem your BTC tokens for actual BTC. Wouldn't that be a perfect problem for a smart contract? It could be used to generate such tethering tokens, hold all real coins (ethereum, here, but if I got it correctly, lightning will implement smart contracts in btc blockchain as well in the future), allow for fast token exchanges and then slower withdrawal from the contract stash. Converting fiat to tokens is still the problem, here, obviously.
- giergirey 9y agoYes, I also think exchanging tokens is one of the (few?) situations where a smart contract really is a great solution to a real world problem (as opposed to blockchain hype). Definitely an interesting area, I've been watching this space, here's some interesting ones: On the tethered tokens side, https://decentralizedcapital.com https://decentralizedcapital.com seem to be offering tethered tokens backed by real currencies (and cryptocurrencies on other chains). Not heard much about them though. Implementing full exchange matching rules is pushing at the limit of what's possible in an Ethereum smart contract - https://ubitok.io https://ubitok.io are working on it (disclaimer: I'm involved with them!). As others have mentioned, https://etherdelta.github.io https://etherdelta.github.io is one of the better known decentralised token exchanges - though they do use an off-chain matching engine so it's not totally on-chain. https://oasisdex.com https://oasisdex.com have gone the other way - they're 100% on-chain, but they don't try to do best execution / automated matching - you have to pick an order to trade with.
- sauronlord 9y agoIn the future, all fiat will be denominated as crypto coins. Then something like Bancor or OpenAnX will be used to convert safely
- cupcakestand 9y agoUltra fast trading in millisenconds + real-time updates of all orders are the key requirements for any exchange. Not sure how a decentralized exhange could manage this.
- nyolfen 9y agoanother vitally important concern in my experience is not being arbitrarily banned without any justification offered, as happened to me with coinbase. decentralized technology has its own strengths.
- superphil0 9y agoIn my opinion the frictionless exchange between cryptos and fiat will become important for real world use cases which don't need to be done in milliseconds but rather seconds
- Mahn 9y agoThat's if you want to trade in real-time, but a slow decentralized exchange still has value for casual buyers and sellers. An exchange is typically both a trading platform and a marketplace, but it doesn't have to do both to be useful.
- max_ 9y agoA better version already exists https://etherdelta.github.io https://etherdelta.github.io
- giergirey 9y agoYes, https://etherdelta.github.io/ https://etherdelta.github.io/ were way ahead of everyone else, if someone asks me for an example of an Ethereum contract that's solving a real world problem right now then they're the first one I think of. It's a shame that Ethereum tokens are getting a bit of a bad reputation, because an exchange like EtherDelta coupled with asset-backed tokens could really open up all kinds of possibilities. Disclaimer: I'm involved with https://ubitok.io https://ubitok.io which are similar to EtherDelta (but /totally/ on-chain, no off-chain matching engine needed!)
- cbeams 9y agoBisq team member here, thanks everyone for the feedback so far. Happy to field further questions. Ask us anything...