4 ms·

> I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you > pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in

> I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you > pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in > your new job. Fortunately for us not all line managers have such inflated egos and don't take such requests down to a personal level.

mamon 9y ago
It's not ego, it's just "do not negotiate with terrorists" approach adapted to the workplace. If you make such concession for one employee, the next day you'll have 5 others with similar demands. EDIT: One more thing: the reason why it is often easier to get a raise by changing jobs instead of negotiating it in your current workplace is information asymmetry. Your current employer knows you all too well, so it is hard to convince them to pay you more. Potential new employer does not know that much about you, plus they are in need of new employee so they are more likely to give you more money.
- pc86 9y ago
  Well if you're paying half a dozen people below market, that's sort of to be expected, isn't it? Management knows the market rate for a given role. Let's say a good-not-great senior developer (as in give them a code base and a quiet room and you've got substantive code on day 1 or 2) commands $100k cash comp to make the math easy. You take the job for 10% below market for whatever those reasons happen to be. Maybe your last job was only $95k but this one has a much better vacation/retirement package. If you go to your boss after 6-12 months of being a good senior dev and a good employee (meaning all the admin nonsense that comes along with being an employee - meetings, timely communication, generally not being an asshole, etc) and say that market rate is $100k, you're getting paid $90k, and you'd like $100-105k, they know that's a fair ask. Whether they are willing and/or able to actually pay you that ask is another thing. My point being that there's nothing "terroristic" about asking for what you're worth. You can do it without a competing offer, but often times a competing offer is the easiest way to get something close to a market rate number.
  - mamon 9y ago
    Who said anything about paying below market? Illusory superiority[1] is a real issue - about 70% of people think they are above average, so they keep demanding above-market salaries. Plus, as I mentioned in my previous post, other employers have harder time evaluating person's skills through interviews than a company that currently employs them. So they offer above-average salary to your average employees and by the time they realize that they overpaid for their skills it usually is too late, so they keep them on payroll anyway - that's basically how IT salary bubble works, most of the time :) (at least that's how it works in Poland, I don't know a thing about US job market) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
    - UK-AL 9y ago
      It's not a illusion if they can get it.
    - kazagistar 9y ago
      So what you are saying is that they can get and retain a higher salary elsewhere, but that isn't what they are worth? Sounds like the market is disagreeing with your price evaluation, and the market is more right then you are.
    - matwood 9y ago
      The whole point of showing up with an offer is so that the market is known, and to avoid any delusions of grandeur.
      - mamon 9y ago
        I honestly don't know what's the point of mentioning an offer to your current employer. If you have a better offer - take it, don't let me hold your career back, good luck, no hard feelings on my side. From my experience the reason why employees who have another offer even bother to mention it to their current boss, asking for counter, is because that other offer has some serious downside that prevents them from just accepting it right away. Anyway, I can probably replace you with someone that will gladly take your current salary. And if I can't and end up paying your replacement the money you demanded (or more) at least I'll be paying that to the guy who is happy to work for me, not to someone who is already actively looking for other jobs.
- joncrocks 9y ago
  Following this argument to this logical conclusion, all your employees will leave, and you won't be able to hire anyone new. If you're not offering similar compensation to other organisations, then anyone interviewing and getting offers from multiple places will likely not pick your organisation, unless you can compete on some other metric. > the reason why it is often easier to get a raise by changing jobs instead of negotiating it in your current workplace is information asymmetry. Yes, probably. Because without interviewing at other places you don't know what your skills might be worth, and your employer is probably not going to tell you how much your colleagues are getting paid and your 'boss' probably tells you "you're getting above industry average."
- infinite8s 9y ago
  If your entire team is able to get competing offers higher than you are currently paying them, you have bigger problems (ie your entire team is likely underpaid compared to market rate)

mamon 9y ago

It's not ego, it's just "do not negotiate with terrorists" approach adapted to the workplace. If you make such concession for one employee, the next day you'll have 5 others with similar demands. EDIT: One more thing: the reason why it is often easier to get a raise by changing jobs instead of negotiating it in your current workplace is information asymmetry. Your current employer knows you all too well, so it is hard to convince them to pay you more. Potential new employer does not know that much about you, plus they are in need of new employee so they are more likely to give you more money.

pc86 9y ago
Well if you're paying half a dozen people below market, that's sort of to be expected, isn't it? Management knows the market rate for a given role. Let's say a good-not-great senior developer (as in give them a code base and a quiet room and you've got substantive code on day 1 or 2) commands $100k cash comp to make the math easy. You take the job for 10% below market for whatever those reasons happen to be. Maybe your last job was only $95k but this one has a much better vacation/retirement package. If you go to your boss after 6-12 months of being a good senior dev and a good employee (meaning all the admin nonsense that comes along with being an employee - meetings, timely communication, generally not being an asshole, etc) and say that market rate is $100k, you're getting paid $90k, and you'd like $100-105k, they know that's a fair ask. Whether they are willing and/or able to actually pay you that ask is another thing. My point being that there's nothing "terroristic" about asking for what you're worth. You can do it without a competing offer, but often times a competing offer is the easiest way to get something close to a market rate number.
- mamon 9y ago
  Who said anything about paying below market? Illusory superiority[1] is a real issue - about 70% of people think they are above average, so they keep demanding above-market salaries. Plus, as I mentioned in my previous post, other employers have harder time evaluating person's skills through interviews than a company that currently employs them. So they offer above-average salary to your average employees and by the time they realize that they overpaid for their skills it usually is too late, so they keep them on payroll anyway - that's basically how IT salary bubble works, most of the time :) (at least that's how it works in Poland, I don't know a thing about US job market) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
  - UK-AL 9y ago
    It's not a illusion if they can get it.
  - kazagistar 9y ago
    So what you are saying is that they can get and retain a higher salary elsewhere, but that isn't what they are worth? Sounds like the market is disagreeing with your price evaluation, and the market is more right then you are.
  - matwood 9y ago
    The whole point of showing up with an offer is so that the market is known, and to avoid any delusions of grandeur.
    - mamon 9y ago
      I honestly don't know what's the point of mentioning an offer to your current employer. If you have a better offer - take it, don't let me hold your career back, good luck, no hard feelings on my side. From my experience the reason why employees who have another offer even bother to mention it to their current boss, asking for counter, is because that other offer has some serious downside that prevents them from just accepting it right away. Anyway, I can probably replace you with someone that will gladly take your current salary. And if I can't and end up paying your replacement the money you demanded (or more) at least I'll be paying that to the guy who is happy to work for me, not to someone who is already actively looking for other jobs.
joncrocks 9y ago
Following this argument to this logical conclusion, all your employees will leave, and you won't be able to hire anyone new. If you're not offering similar compensation to other organisations, then anyone interviewing and getting offers from multiple places will likely not pick your organisation, unless you can compete on some other metric. > the reason why it is often easier to get a raise by changing jobs instead of negotiating it in your current workplace is information asymmetry. Yes, probably. Because without interviewing at other places you don't know what your skills might be worth, and your employer is probably not going to tell you how much your colleagues are getting paid and your 'boss' probably tells you "you're getting above industry average."
infinite8s 9y ago
If your entire team is able to get competing offers higher than you are currently paying them, you have bigger problems (ie your entire team is likely underpaid compared to market rate)