4 ms·

As a developer, kindness is EARNED, you want people to be kind to you despite of who you are and your mediocre contribution to the code base , unnecessarily re

by throwme_1980 9y ago

As a developer, kindness is EARNED, you want people to be kind to you despite of who you are and your mediocre contribution to the code base , unnecessarily refactoring code when you're meant to be working on an important feature ? No sir, I don't think it'll be kindness you will get from or any business manager. If however you want well deserved respect and kindness, show that you excel at your job, you are able to deliver for me in a timely fashion and exceeding expectation. You can't handle being criticised ? You have no business being in business, go open a charity bookshop. One has to understand, developers like in any other creative industry can go off on a tangent by themselves if not given direction explicitly, sometimes that means being very much assertive and firm. If that is perceived as being unkind then tough luck.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nxc18 9y ago
You have it backwards. Disrespect & unkindness are earned. Common courtesy and respect should be the default with anyone you meet or work with. If I'm a new developer on your project, I expect to be treated like a valued contributor until my conduct reveals me to be something else. If you don't like how a team member or contributor is behaving, have that conversation. I totally understand that in the picture you paint, you'd want to be unkind to that person. That makes sense, as they do seem awful, but really that's the manager's fault for: a) hiring them or b) not working to improve their performance or putting them on a PIP, or c) not firing them.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  There exist developers that are very congenial and who check in messes for others to clean up. Their words are great but their attitude towards their work product doesn't show respect to the feelings or time of their teammates. In those cases, talking about kindness in our conversation falls short of the actual problem. I read the parent comment to be a brusquely phrased statement of that idea.
eropple 9y ago
I'm going to be kind to you, and I'm still going to be honest (watch how easy it is to do both!). You're identifying people as deserving of kindness because of what they do for you. This is wrong. People are deserving of kindness because they are people. The mindset you describe is one that is pissing in the societal pool. It's toxic and it's foul and you should work to be better than what you have expressed here. "Your worth is what you do for me" is the kind of transactional inhumanity that makes people put guns in their mouths and pull the trigger. Don't make the world a worse place if you can help it. And you can.
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  > I'm going to be kind to you, and I'm still going to be honest. You're identifying people as deserving of kindness because of what they do for you. This is wrong. People are deserving of kindness because they are people. I agree completely. However, to provide another perspective, that might be more convincing to people who have inclinations towards "what can this person do for me": You'd be amazed at the difference in results you get through kindness and empathy (while still being direct and clear). You don't just get people who do what you say and respect your technical acumen. You get people who enthusiastically support you with others, who communicate your view because they see it as right, not just as a warning to others who might face your ire otherwise. You get people who actively seek you out as a resource and pull you in on projects, rather than people who do any high-risk-high-reward work behind your back because they don't want you to see it until it's beyond all possible reproach. You become a person whose input is enthusiastically valued, rather than grudgingly required. You build up a cadre of technical engineers and other future technical leaders who value and support the same things you do and understand the same considerations you do, which means the next time a similar issue arises, you might not have to be the person to deal with it personally, because you've mentored those around you. And while this might depend on your personality, personally, I find that it produces a working culture that gives me energy to take part in, rather than one that saps energy. So, even if your outlook on life is "how should I behave to get the results I want", I still think you'll find that empathy and kindness will produce better results for you. Leaving aside all the reasons of basic human decency.
emodendroket 9y ago
I don't believe that a basic level of courtesy is "earned."
Shank 9y ago
> No sir, I don't think it'll be kindness you will get from or any business manager. The internet isn't serious business. The vast majority of people don't come close to working on "mission critical software." [0] At least anecdotally, all of my software managers have been nice and compassionate, if a bit lofty in thinking. If you have a manager that bad, you should leave. It isn't necessary to be so completely unwilling to give slack on the internet just because it's software development. It's not an elite club. It's just another hobby or another job. Nobody will die because of a pull request. But people will really feel bad if you slam them for sending it. [0]: https://m.signalvnoise.com/your-software-just-isnt-mission-critical-b26f8079e6ec https://m.signalvnoise.com/your-software-just-isnt-mission-c...
JoshTriplett 9y ago
> As a developer, kindness is EARNED, you want people to be kind to you despite of who you are and your mediocre contribution to the code base , unnecessarily refactoring code when you're meant to be working on an important feature ? So, you want to take a developer who is enthusiastic and lacks trepidation, and who is simply inexperienced, and crush that tendency with unkindness? It's a mentorship opportunity. You recognize the hazard of refactoring working code (especially e.g. without a strong test suite or when there are higher-priority things to be working on), and they don't. So teach them that, and the reasons for it, and then they'll be a better engineer and a more valuable resource for your team. As well as someone who respects your expertise, rather than someone who resents you for snapping at them.
Karrot_Kream 9y ago
> If however you want well deserved respect and kindness, show that you excel at your job, you are able to deliver for me in a timely fashion and exceeding expectation. You can't handle being criticised ? You have no business being in business, go open a charity bookshop. One has to understand, developers like in any other creative industry can go off on a tangent by themselves if not given direction explicitly, sometimes that means being very much assertive and firm. If that is perceived as being unkind then tough luck. Heh unless you paid me commensurately to warrant this treatment, I would never work like this. As your direct report, you need to _earn_ respect for me. Respect is a two-way street and management doesn't get it simply for being management or having a higher title.
camgunz 9y ago
> As a developer, kindness is EARNED, you want people to be kind to you despite of who you are and your mediocre contribution to the code base , unnecessarily refactoring code when you're meant to be working on an important feature ? No sir, I don't think it'll be kindness you will get from or any business manager. Kindness, not contempt, should be the default.
_jal 9y ago
I'm glad I don't work where you do. Kindness is a default; beyond ethics or simply being a decent human, it is simply pragmatic to assume good intent on the part of those around you until proven otherwise. Respect, on the other hand, is earned. Far too many people think they're owed it by virtue of position. To be blunt, fuck that. You can make me fear you that way, but you can't make me respect you. And a great way to lose my respect is to make everything all about you (are you working on what I think is important?) or demonstrate a lack of empathy. (Which is not to be confused with sympathy.) In fact, showing an inability to empathize might make me pity you - it is a disability - but not want to be around you.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
throwme_1980 9y ago
you have to look at it from a different perspective, a business exists to make money, being terse, assertive and direct doesn't make one unkind. the drawn out process of cajoling souls into doing something is the equivalent of burning cash while trying to stuff it back into your purse. being unkind is also relative, it doesn't necessarily equate to being a jerk or going out of your way to upset someone, no, au contraire, some people perceive unkindness because you dont go around the office shaking people's hand every morning... i will leave you with one last nugget of wisdom: Most software nowadays is a non-mission critical where 2-3 average-joe-developer getting paid average salaries will be more than adequate to finish the project. so no , i don't need you to innovate, just need you to execute on a vision as it has been outlined (by a well deserving A player), you do a good job, you become that A player.
- eropple 9y ago
  I don't "have" to look at it any way you tell me to and the inhumane way you post makes it nearly a certainty that I won't. Have you considered the knock-on effects, like this one, that being inhumane as you are being will cause? I'll say it again for emphasis: the transactional, inhumane culture you are advocating for hurts people and you should stop pissing in our shared pool. You are not your KPIs and neither are the people over whom you think you lord.
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  > i will leave you with one last nugget of wisdom: Most software nowadays is a non-mission critical where 2-3 average-joe-developer getting paid average salaries will be more than adequate to finish the project. so no , i don't need you to innovate, just need you to execute on a vision as it has been outlined (by a well deserving A player), you do a good job, you become that A player. Do it yourself then. Your "vision" is worth jack-shit without execution, so even the "average-joe" devs you're shitting on should be important to you. :) Or perhaps you're only the "ideas" person...then there are enough overzealous sociopaths in that sphere without you in it as well.
- eropple 9y ago
  > just need you to execute on a vision as it has been outlined (by a well deserving A player) I didn't even notice this nugget of horrible yesterday. You're a "meritocracy" guy, aren't'cha? Consider this: people who exhibit the attitudes you are exhibiting are very unlikely to actually be "A players" because anyone with options will avoid you for people who don't treat them as machines to bend and break for your personal goals. You can't be an "A player" without the help of the people around you. Why would they help you if you would just consume and discard them?
jacques_chester 9y ago
> One has to understand, developers like in any other creative industry can go off on a tangent by themselves if not given direction explicitly, sometimes that means being very much assertive and firm. One also has to understand that there ways of achieving this without falling back to command-and-control models of management. I spent 2.5 years in Pivotal Labs before switching to Cloud R&D. My interpretation of the doctrine I imbibed is that no line of code exists until a test justifies its existence, no test exists unless a story justifies its existence, no story exists unless Product and Design have done some legwork with real users to say yes, this make their lives better. The system works on trust and empathetic mutual professionalism. And it works very bloody well.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

nxc18 9y ago

You have it backwards. Disrespect & unkindness are earned. Common courtesy and respect should be the default with anyone you meet or work with. If I'm a new developer on your project, I expect to be treated like a valued contributor until my conduct reveals me to be something else. If you don't like how a team member or contributor is behaving, have that conversation. I totally understand that in the picture you paint, you'd want to be unkind to that person. That makes sense, as they do seem awful, but really that's the manager's fault for: a) hiring them or b) not working to improve their performance or putting them on a PIP, or c) not firing them.

humanrebar 9y ago
There exist developers that are very congenial and who check in messes for others to clean up. Their words are great but their attitude towards their work product doesn't show respect to the feelings or time of their teammates. In those cases, talking about kindness in our conversation falls short of the actual problem. I read the parent comment to be a brusquely phrased statement of that idea.

eropple 9y ago

I'm going to be kind to you, and I'm still going to be honest (watch how easy it is to do both!). You're identifying people as deserving of kindness because of what they do for you. This is wrong. People are deserving of kindness because they are people. The mindset you describe is one that is pissing in the societal pool. It's toxic and it's foul and you should work to be better than what you have expressed here. "Your worth is what you do for me" is the kind of transactional inhumanity that makes people put guns in their mouths and pull the trigger. Don't make the world a worse place if you can help it. And you can.

JoshTriplett 9y ago
> I'm going to be kind to you, and I'm still going to be honest. You're identifying people as deserving of kindness because of what they do for you. This is wrong. People are deserving of kindness because they are people. I agree completely. However, to provide another perspective, that might be more convincing to people who have inclinations towards "what can this person do for me": You'd be amazed at the difference in results you get through kindness and empathy (while still being direct and clear). You don't just get people who do what you say and respect your technical acumen. You get people who enthusiastically support you with others, who communicate your view because they see it as right, not just as a warning to others who might face your ire otherwise. You get people who actively seek you out as a resource and pull you in on projects, rather than people who do any high-risk-high-reward work behind your back because they don't want you to see it until it's beyond all possible reproach. You become a person whose input is enthusiastically valued, rather than grudgingly required. You build up a cadre of technical engineers and other future technical leaders who value and support the same things you do and understand the same considerations you do, which means the next time a similar issue arises, you might not have to be the person to deal with it personally, because you've mentored those around you. And while this might depend on your personality, personally, I find that it produces a working culture that gives me energy to take part in, rather than one that saps energy. So, even if your outlook on life is "how should I behave to get the results I want", I still think you'll find that empathy and kindness will produce better results for you. Leaving aside all the reasons of basic human decency.

emodendroket 9y ago

I don't believe that a basic level of courtesy is "earned."

Shank 9y ago

> No sir, I don't think it'll be kindness you will get from or any business manager. The internet isn't serious business. The vast majority of people don't come close to working on "mission critical software." [0] At least anecdotally, all of my software managers have been nice and compassionate, if a bit lofty in thinking. If you have a manager that bad, you should leave. It isn't necessary to be so completely unwilling to give slack on the internet just because it's software development. It's not an elite club. It's just another hobby or another job. Nobody will die because of a pull request. But people will really feel bad if you slam them for sending it. [0]: https://m.signalvnoise.com/your-software-just-isnt-mission-critical-b26f8079e6ec https://m.signalvnoise.com/your-software-just-isnt-mission-c...

JoshTriplett 9y ago

> As a developer, kindness is EARNED, you want people to be kind to you despite of who you are and your mediocre contribution to the code base , unnecessarily refactoring code when you're meant to be working on an important feature ? So, you want to take a developer who is enthusiastic and lacks trepidation, and who is simply inexperienced, and crush that tendency with unkindness? It's a mentorship opportunity. You recognize the hazard of refactoring working code (especially e.g. without a strong test suite or when there are higher-priority things to be working on), and they don't. So teach them that, and the reasons for it, and then they'll be a better engineer and a more valuable resource for your team. As well as someone who respects your expertise, rather than someone who resents you for snapping at them.

Karrot_Kream 9y ago

> If however you want well deserved respect and kindness, show that you excel at your job, you are able to deliver for me in a timely fashion and exceeding expectation. You can't handle being criticised ? You have no business being in business, go open a charity bookshop. One has to understand, developers like in any other creative industry can go off on a tangent by themselves if not given direction explicitly, sometimes that means being very much assertive and firm. If that is perceived as being unkind then tough luck. Heh unless you paid me commensurately to warrant this treatment, I would never work like this. As your direct report, you need to _earn_ respect for me. Respect is a two-way street and management doesn't get it simply for being management or having a higher title.

camgunz 9y ago

> As a developer, kindness is EARNED, you want people to be kind to you despite of who you are and your mediocre contribution to the code base , unnecessarily refactoring code when you're meant to be working on an important feature ? No sir, I don't think it'll be kindness you will get from or any business manager. Kindness, not contempt, should be the default.

_jal 9y ago

I'm glad I don't work where you do. Kindness is a default; beyond ethics or simply being a decent human, it is simply pragmatic to assume good intent on the part of those around you until proven otherwise. Respect, on the other hand, is earned. Far too many people think they're owed it by virtue of position. To be blunt, fuck that. You can make me fear you that way, but you can't make me respect you. And a great way to lose my respect is to make everything all about you (are you working on what I think is important?) or demonstrate a lack of empathy. (Which is not to be confused with sympathy.) In fact, showing an inability to empathize might make me pity you - it is a disability - but not want to be around you.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

throwme_1980 9y ago

you have to look at it from a different perspective, a business exists to make money, being terse, assertive and direct doesn't make one unkind. the drawn out process of cajoling souls into doing something is the equivalent of burning cash while trying to stuff it back into your purse. being unkind is also relative, it doesn't necessarily equate to being a jerk or going out of your way to upset someone, no, au contraire, some people perceive unkindness because you dont go around the office shaking people's hand every morning... i will leave you with one last nugget of wisdom: Most software nowadays is a non-mission critical where 2-3 average-joe-developer getting paid average salaries will be more than adequate to finish the project. so no , i don't need you to innovate, just need you to execute on a vision as it has been outlined (by a well deserving A player), you do a good job, you become that A player.

eropple 9y ago
I don't "have" to look at it any way you tell me to and the inhumane way you post makes it nearly a certainty that I won't. Have you considered the knock-on effects, like this one, that being inhumane as you are being will cause? I'll say it again for emphasis: the transactional, inhumane culture you are advocating for hurts people and you should stop pissing in our shared pool. You are not your KPIs and neither are the people over whom you think you lord.
GenericsMotors 9y ago
> i will leave you with one last nugget of wisdom: Most software nowadays is a non-mission critical where 2-3 average-joe-developer getting paid average salaries will be more than adequate to finish the project. so no , i don't need you to innovate, just need you to execute on a vision as it has been outlined (by a well deserving A player), you do a good job, you become that A player. Do it yourself then. Your "vision" is worth jack-shit without execution, so even the "average-joe" devs you're shitting on should be important to you. :) Or perhaps you're only the "ideas" person...then there are enough overzealous sociopaths in that sphere without you in it as well.
eropple 9y ago
> just need you to execute on a vision as it has been outlined (by a well deserving A player) I didn't even notice this nugget of horrible yesterday. You're a "meritocracy" guy, aren't'cha? Consider this: people who exhibit the attitudes you are exhibiting are very unlikely to actually be "A players" because anyone with options will avoid you for people who don't treat them as machines to bend and break for your personal goals. You can't be an "A player" without the help of the people around you. Why would they help you if you would just consume and discard them?

jacques_chester 9y ago

> One has to understand, developers like in any other creative industry can go off on a tangent by themselves if not given direction explicitly, sometimes that means being very much assertive and firm. One also has to understand that there ways of achieving this without falling back to command-and-control models of management. I spent 2.5 years in Pivotal Labs before switching to Cloud R&D. My interpretation of the doctrine I imbibed is that no line of code exists until a test justifies its existence, no test exists unless a story justifies its existence, no story exists unless Product and Design have done some legwork with real users to say yes, this make their lives better. The system works on trust and empathetic mutual professionalism. And it works very bloody well.