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If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-xiaobo/ http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

dis-sys 9y ago
Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more westernisation, the more progress." Western, independent source here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-winner-liu-xiaobo-chinese-dissident https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-... I thought China should be allowed to preserve it own culture and independence. Liu seemed to hold a quite different idea. btw, it must be quite a shock for you to know such fact. I mean please feel free to downvote if you agree with Liu's very repressive view on how China should be colonized by the west for 300 years to get better argument. The whole "progress in China depends on westernisation" also sounds like a cultural genocide to me.
- charsifood 9y ago
  EDIT: @dang, please remove my post.
  - amygdyl 9y ago
    "My tendency to idealize Western civilization arises from my nationalistic desire to use the West in order to reform China" I cannot read this without translating it in the way I imagined it would be heard in the offices of power, to mean he is freely admitting to the desire to subvert his own nation with foreign culture, no matter or difference his meaning or intent. I'm being as literal as ever I can be, but I have understood that sentence as if I just read it being said about my country and not China. I would not be amused with someone saying that about England.
    - literallycancer 9y ago
      That's pretty much what happens any time someone tries to improve their country though. You look at what works elsewhere, and then you do it.
- amygdyl 9y ago
  I always felt that China simply faced much starker realities and choices than ever we are able to fully appreciate when we complain about the systems they have. I'm no Sinophile, and I think Great Britain should have built a floating desalination plant before ceding Hong Kong Island. But the little I know about Chinas history, the fragmentation of historically antagonistic races among the Chinese diaspora we call a people, and the immense variety of issues that have developed in isolation unique to their world, I believe all conspire to alienate the most rational observers from true neutrality. My mind blows fuses just contemplating the pressures and tensions that abound seemingly everywhere in their daily lives.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.
  - ideal0227 9y ago
    > 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view about changing China through colonial no matter what he tries to justify. And I believe no rational Chinese people will agree him on this.
    - pavlov 9y ago
      Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?
      - ideal0227 9y ago
        What are you trying to say? Is this a question related to my last view or trying to question me?! I cannot figure your point really.
        pavlov 9y ago
        I'm honestly curious to know if you feel that his treatment by the Chinese authorities was just (i.e. in proportion to the perceived crime).
        ideal0227 9y ago
        There are a lot of problems with Chinese authorities. There are a lot of things I cannot agree on with them, and I am one of the Chinese people that are trying hard to fix them by doing real work. Moreover, China != Chinese government. I, personally, hate the opinion that Chinese people who has a "traditional" view is inferior. Yes, they might be "washed" by todays "Chinese system" or education, and you disagree with them. But, it is not their fault. And most of Liu's view is going towards the direction I really hate. Another example is his calling Chinese people "slaves transformed by the education system". Again, I am not saying the authorities did the right or best thing. But just Liu is not the person that I would respect.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  Cultural genocide is an abomination of a term. It misappropriates a word that conjures up unspeakable horror of mass extermination in order to make suppression of cultural activities / works as bad as mass murder. Its about as bad as statutory rape.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    It's just a colorful metaphore. Chill out.
  - fit2rule 9y ago
    Especially egregious considering that all culture is a lie and it genocides itself by default anyway.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- eru 9y ago
  > I thought China should be allowed to preserve it own culture and independence. Alas, the 'cultural revolution' destroyed most of that culture. You can still find some remnants of parts of it in the overseas chinese communities of southeast asia.
- xupybd 9y ago
  Here's the thing. You don't have to agree with his political views. You don't have to pick a side. But you can still see his treatment as bad. This man is in prison for disagreeing with the government, that is very bad.
qwertyegg 9y ago
What is not mentioned in Perry's writing is that Liu's claim that China needs to be colonized for 300 years (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/10/liu-xiaobo-and-the-300-years-problem/64916/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/10/li...) has put him as a shameful character in Chinese history. He might have thousands of supporters in China, of course, it's a country with 1.3b people. It doesn't matter, most people see him as a pitiful puppet of western government, and he is, by accepting numerous funds from NED, and probably CIA as well (http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/Liu-Xiaobo_NED_CIA.html http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/Liu-Xiaobo_NED_CIA.htm...). Yea he is not a hero, I don't care if he won Nobel prize, he is a trash with a bone, that's all he is.
- sctb 9y ago
  Personal insults like this don't belong on HN. If you have a point to make, it needs to be made civilly and substantively. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dis-sys 9y ago

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more westernisation, the more progress." Western, independent source here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-winner-liu-xiaobo-chinese-dissident https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-... I thought China should be allowed to preserve it own culture and independence. Liu seemed to hold a quite different idea. btw, it must be quite a shock for you to know such fact. I mean please feel free to downvote if you agree with Liu's very repressive view on how China should be colonized by the west for 300 years to get better argument. The whole "progress in China depends on westernisation" also sounds like a cultural genocide to me.

charsifood 9y ago
EDIT: @dang, please remove my post.
- amygdyl 9y ago
  "My tendency to idealize Western civilization arises from my nationalistic desire to use the West in order to reform China" I cannot read this without translating it in the way I imagined it would be heard in the offices of power, to mean he is freely admitting to the desire to subvert his own nation with foreign culture, no matter or difference his meaning or intent. I'm being as literal as ever I can be, but I have understood that sentence as if I just read it being said about my country and not China. I would not be amused with someone saying that about England.
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    That's pretty much what happens any time someone tries to improve their country though. You look at what works elsewhere, and then you do it.
amygdyl 9y ago
I always felt that China simply faced much starker realities and choices than ever we are able to fully appreciate when we complain about the systems they have. I'm no Sinophile, and I think Great Britain should have built a floating desalination plant before ceding Hong Kong Island. But the little I know about Chinas history, the fragmentation of historically antagonistic races among the Chinese diaspora we call a people, and the immense variety of issues that have developed in isolation unique to their world, I believe all conspire to alienate the most rational observers from true neutrality. My mind blows fuses just contemplating the pressures and tensions that abound seemingly everywhere in their daily lives.
jackvalentine 9y ago
Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.
- ideal0227 9y ago
  > 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view about changing China through colonial no matter what he tries to justify. And I believe no rational Chinese people will agree him on this.
  - pavlov 9y ago
    Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?
    - ideal0227 9y ago
      What are you trying to say? Is this a question related to my last view or trying to question me?! I cannot figure your point really.
      - pavlov 9y ago
        I'm honestly curious to know if you feel that his treatment by the Chinese authorities was just (i.e. in proportion to the perceived crime).
        ideal0227 9y ago
        There are a lot of problems with Chinese authorities. There are a lot of things I cannot agree on with them, and I am one of the Chinese people that are trying hard to fix them by doing real work. Moreover, China != Chinese government. I, personally, hate the opinion that Chinese people who has a "traditional" view is inferior. Yes, they might be "washed" by todays "Chinese system" or education, and you disagree with them. But, it is not their fault. And most of Liu's view is going towards the direction I really hate. Another example is his calling Chinese people "slaves transformed by the education system". Again, I am not saying the authorities did the right or best thing. But just Liu is not the person that I would respect.
michaelmrose 9y ago
Cultural genocide is an abomination of a term. It misappropriates a word that conjures up unspeakable horror of mass extermination in order to make suppression of cultural activities / works as bad as mass murder. Its about as bad as statutory rape.
- sametmax 9y ago
  It's just a colorful metaphore. Chill out.
- fit2rule 9y ago
  Especially egregious considering that all culture is a lie and it genocides itself by default anyway.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
eru 9y ago
> I thought China should be allowed to preserve it own culture and independence. Alas, the 'cultural revolution' destroyed most of that culture. You can still find some remnants of parts of it in the overseas chinese communities of southeast asia.
xupybd 9y ago
Here's the thing. You don't have to agree with his political views. You don't have to pick a side. But you can still see his treatment as bad. This man is in prison for disagreeing with the government, that is very bad.

qwertyegg 9y ago

What is not mentioned in Perry's writing is that Liu's claim that China needs to be colonized for 300 years (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/10/liu-xiaobo-and-the-300-years-problem/64916/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/10/li...) has put him as a shameful character in Chinese history. He might have thousands of supporters in China, of course, it's a country with 1.3b people. It doesn't matter, most people see him as a pitiful puppet of western government, and he is, by accepting numerous funds from NED, and probably CIA as well (http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/Liu-Xiaobo_NED_CIA.html http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/Liu-Xiaobo_NED_CIA.htm...). Yea he is not a hero, I don't care if he won Nobel prize, he is a trash with a bone, that's all he is.

sctb 9y ago
Personal insults like this don't belong on HN. If you have a point to make, it needs to be made civilly and substantively. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html