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This says nothing about why people don't support realistic measures to alleviate income inequality which don't upset the social order. I'd say almost all if not

by mnm1 9y ago

This says nothing about why people don't support realistic measures to alleviate income inequality which don't upset the social order. I'd say almost all if not all realistic programs and solutions proposed do not upset said order so why aren't they supported by over 70% of the population? Or maybe they are and our representatives just ignore us. I'm not talking about stupid ideas like communism but things like raising the minimum wage.

ikeyany 9y ago
They don't upset the social order immediately, but they're a starting point. So it would make sense to be against that too, to maintain the current social hierarchy.
AnthonyMouse 9y ago
> I'm not talking about stupid ideas like communism but things like raising the minimum wage. The minimum wage is an old rally flag, but it affects the bottom 1% when the problem is the top 1%. It's not the difference between the 1st percentile and the 25th, it's the difference between the 25th (or even the 90th) and the 99.9th. The policies to fix that aren't the "help the poorest" ones, they're the ones that help small businesses and help consumers. Trust busting, lower housing costs (especially middle class housing), reducing regulatory compliance (paperwork) costs on small business, government spending on infrastructure, municipal fiber, patent-free basic research funding, etc. Minimum wage is a distraction from the things that would actually help.
- labster 9y ago
  > The minimum wage is an old rally flag, but it affects the bottom 1% I was skeptical when you suggested that it was that small, but the most recent Pew study says that only 2% of workers earn the federal minimum wage in the U.S. [1] But they go on to point out that 30% of American workers earn "near-minimum wage" i.e. ≤ $10.10/h. If minimum wage were increased to $9/h, that would probably affect the earnings of nearly all of those people. [1]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-mi...
  - AnthonyMouse 9y ago
    That is missing the point. Even assuming all of them went from $15K/year to $19K/year, that doesn't bring back the middle class. It's not enough to get the people at the 5th percentile to where the people at the 25th percentile are. We need to get the people at the 25th percentile to where the people at the 50th percentile are now, and the people at the 50th percentile to where the people at the 75th percentile are now etc. Trying to lift up only the bottom is what hollows out the middle. We need to lift up the middle too.
- BoiledCabbage 9y ago
  Because study after study has shown the money does trickle up. And putting more money in the hands of the poorest actually is one of the most effective ways of getting it into the economy. I believe every additional $1 of income for the lowest income leveled created economic growth of $1.40 or something and as you got to higher income brackets it hit parity with $1, then finally was significantly less than a dollar.
- mnm1 9y ago
  My point is that no one supports any of those things that would actually help either and I don't think it's because they would upset the social order because the social order wouldn't change. I used minimum wage as an example because it without a doubt will not upset the social order, not necessarily because it is the best example. Substitute whatever you want in there and the argument is the same.
bpodgursky 9y ago
> but things like raising the minimum wage There are very valid reasons to think that raising the minimum wage is worse overall for low-income earners, by locking marginal-skill workers out of the job market forever. There are more technical solutions supported by many economists (for example, the EITC) but they are more complicated to understand and don't make headlines. Not all policy disagreement is pure evil, and you're doing yourself a disservice by thinking "everyone who wants to help the poor should be for a high minimum wage". Even if in the end you disagree with the logic, it's not a position held out of malice.
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
There are realistic measures and we're using them now, it's part of our progressive tax system where wealthier pay more than poor (both in percentage and total dollars). Clearly there's limitations to alleviating income inequality that can't be solved simply by the redistribution of wealth.
throwaway842875 9y ago
I don't think there should be a minimum wage. I think it's an obvious misuse of government, an unnecessary encroachment on civil liberties, a waste of political effort and momentum, and will only hurt the people it's trying to help. I'd say I'm right about this, so why isn't over 70% of the population in favor of eliminating the minimum wage?
- jonathankoren 9y ago
  > I'd say I'm right about this, so why isn't over 70% of the population in favor of eliminating the minimum wage? Maybe because you're wrong? Seriously dude. Saying "I'm right, so why doesn't anyone agree with me?", while throwing around words like "obvious", shows not intellect, but rather ideological chauvinism. There are many studies and actual experiments about this topic going back literally decades from around the world. I suggest you read about it from authors that you don't reflexively agree with.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  It works for the Swiss.

by mnm1 9y ago

ikeyany 9y ago

They don't upset the social order immediately, but they're a starting point. So it would make sense to be against that too, to maintain the current social hierarchy.

AnthonyMouse 9y ago

> I'm not talking about stupid ideas like communism but things like raising the minimum wage. The minimum wage is an old rally flag, but it affects the bottom 1% when the problem is the top 1%. It's not the difference between the 1st percentile and the 25th, it's the difference between the 25th (or even the 90th) and the 99.9th. The policies to fix that aren't the "help the poorest" ones, they're the ones that help small businesses and help consumers. Trust busting, lower housing costs (especially middle class housing), reducing regulatory compliance (paperwork) costs on small business, government spending on infrastructure, municipal fiber, patent-free basic research funding, etc. Minimum wage is a distraction from the things that would actually help.

labster 9y ago
> The minimum wage is an old rally flag, but it affects the bottom 1% I was skeptical when you suggested that it was that small, but the most recent Pew study says that only 2% of workers earn the federal minimum wage in the U.S. [1] But they go on to point out that 30% of American workers earn "near-minimum wage" i.e. ≤ $10.10/h. If minimum wage were increased to $9/h, that would probably affect the earnings of nearly all of those people. [1]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-mi...
- AnthonyMouse 9y ago
  That is missing the point. Even assuming all of them went from $15K/year to $19K/year, that doesn't bring back the middle class. It's not enough to get the people at the 5th percentile to where the people at the 25th percentile are. We need to get the people at the 25th percentile to where the people at the 50th percentile are now, and the people at the 50th percentile to where the people at the 75th percentile are now etc. Trying to lift up only the bottom is what hollows out the middle. We need to lift up the middle too.
BoiledCabbage 9y ago
Because study after study has shown the money does trickle up. And putting more money in the hands of the poorest actually is one of the most effective ways of getting it into the economy. I believe every additional $1 of income for the lowest income leveled created economic growth of $1.40 or something and as you got to higher income brackets it hit parity with $1, then finally was significantly less than a dollar.
mnm1 9y ago
My point is that no one supports any of those things that would actually help either and I don't think it's because they would upset the social order because the social order wouldn't change. I used minimum wage as an example because it without a doubt will not upset the social order, not necessarily because it is the best example. Substitute whatever you want in there and the argument is the same.

bpodgursky 9y ago

> but things like raising the minimum wage There are very valid reasons to think that raising the minimum wage is worse overall for low-income earners, by locking marginal-skill workers out of the job market forever. There are more technical solutions supported by many economists (for example, the EITC) but they are more complicated to understand and don't make headlines. Not all policy disagreement is pure evil, and you're doing yourself a disservice by thinking "everyone who wants to help the poor should be for a high minimum wage". Even if in the end you disagree with the logic, it's not a position held out of malice.

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

There are realistic measures and we're using them now, it's part of our progressive tax system where wealthier pay more than poor (both in percentage and total dollars). Clearly there's limitations to alleviating income inequality that can't be solved simply by the redistribution of wealth.

throwaway842875 9y ago

I don't think there should be a minimum wage. I think it's an obvious misuse of government, an unnecessary encroachment on civil liberties, a waste of political effort and momentum, and will only hurt the people it's trying to help. I'd say I'm right about this, so why isn't over 70% of the population in favor of eliminating the minimum wage?

jonathankoren 9y ago
> I'd say I'm right about this, so why isn't over 70% of the population in favor of eliminating the minimum wage? Maybe because you're wrong? Seriously dude. Saying "I'm right, so why doesn't anyone agree with me?", while throwing around words like "obvious", shows not intellect, but rather ideological chauvinism. There are many studies and actual experiments about this topic going back literally decades from around the world. I suggest you read about it from authors that you don't reflexively agree with.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
LyndsySimon 9y ago
It works for the Swiss.