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Like I imagine many HN readers, I had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of this post, since it directly attacks a lot of the new cultural norms I grew up in
by losvedir 9y ago
Like I imagine many HN readers, I had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of this post, since it directly attacks a lot of the new cultural norms I grew up in (and cherish).
On the other hand, it does seem to raise some interesting points, so I hope it doesn't get flagged. Our new culture is relatively untested; a lot of our ideas about sex and relationships and children are only a couple generations old. I'm happily married with no children (maybe some to come in the future? Not sure). In this thread I've seen people propose polyamorous communes, and long term life partnerships with children but not marriage. These things may work out, but there's not much of a historical precedent for them, as far as I know.
I recently came back from a trip to Oman. I talked with a ton of people there, and their cultural perspective was very different (and interesting!). While a lot of the younger adults were wanting to get married and have children a little later, there was still a pretty sizeable contingent of the population my age that already had several children. And it was clear that Islam there was such a community-driving force, I could see how their traditions were pretty robust.
All this to say, I have my doubts that my concept of "prosperous, liberal, Western civilization" will live on for the long term. But if the people are fairly content and happy as it fades, is that such an issue? I'm not sure. My biggest regret if it dies is that we may never figure out all the secrets of the universe. But alas, thinking of all my highly educated PhD scientist friends in their 30s, there's only one child.
edit to add: I completely forgot to mention probably the most culturally interesting part (to me) of the Oman trip: it was for a wedding of a friend, but it was a mostly arranged marriage (the bride and groom had veto power, but their parents found the match and they only knew each other for a short while before deciding to marry).
- Moshe_Silnorin 9y ago>But if the people are fairly content and happy as it fades, is that such an issue. Yes, this is a horrible outcome. We must admit that we have something here that is worth preserving. If we continue to fail in this we are in a very sorry state indeed.
- cmahler7 9y agoPeople have been brainwashed to hate their own culture, demorilization is the first step of ideological subversion. Western Civilization might not be perfect but there's nothing else in human history that has come close to it. Everybody should watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA
- tptacek 9y agoThis is a hyperbolic argument that adds nothing to the discussion. One telltale sign of that: you've thrown out an a little rhetorical molotov cocktail of people "brainwashed to hate their own culture", but haven't bothered to take the time to define any of your terms.
- api 9y agoYour last sentence brings up something I've been thinking about for a long time, namely that secular philosophy seems completely blind to children or to the needs of family and child rearing. It's a fairly massive shortcoming. Philosophy must address all of human life, not just the aspects that apply to early 20s single people and that subset of society that doesn't have kids. Some secular communities actively seem to discourage children and belittle people who care about them. It's also common to see full time moms mocked, which I see as misogyny. I usually get attacked in forums for bringing this whole topic up. Needless to say if not believing in God means you don't want to reproduce, then the advent of birth control will guarantee a 100% religious future. Not only are ideas passed from parent to child through cultural mechanisms but if there is any biological basis for religiosity it is now being strongly selected for. In an ultimate cosmic irony those who deny evolution on religious grounds seem to have higher fitness. I have my own hypothesis about this. I think there may be a philosophical "uncanny valley" (fitness valley) between pre-rational superstitious thinking and true rational thought. IMHO this valley has not been crossed. A true fully formed rational worldview would manage to carry everything forward including fertility and spirituality. So far every attempt at conceiving such a thing has landed in New Age lala land but maybe we should not give up.
- Danihan 9y agoHow many agnostic / atheist people do you know that have four or more kids? Atheists don't genuinely seem to believe in natural selection, it's ironic.
- cultofmetatron 9y agoI believe this video properly elaborates on why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXSz0bA9CiE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXSz0bA9CiE
- rukittenme 9y agoIt does not. Marriage and fertility rates are dropping across all income groups. And, in the past, it was the wealthy and educated who had more children than the poor and uneducated.