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What Dog Shootings Reveal About American Policing

85 points by curtis 9y ago

fennecfoxen 9y ago
See also: https://puppycidedb.com/ https://puppycidedb.com/ Or if you just want tales of stupidity, Reason has a nice collection http://reason.com/tags/puppycide http://reason.com/tags/puppycide (if you don't mind the typical Reason editorial positions, and the tone of its coverage). Sample: "Cops Open Gate, Letting Dog Loose, Kill Dog, Cite Owner for Having Dog Loose, Lawsuit Alleges"
dmitrygr 9y ago
So, what you're telling me, is that if you give people with effectively no real accountability loaded weapons, some of them will go on to kill innocents? Say it ain't so!
leesalminen 9y ago
This bothers me. One of my dogs (Australian Cattle Dog) is very protective of her home. Although she behaves very well at others' homes, in public and in cars, once at home she will attempt to "heel" strangers away from the house. She can appear very intimidating. I could easily see a police officer shooting her. The thing is, I like that my dog is protective of her home. It's really comforting to know that if, by chance, I forget to lock my door she will absolutely not allow a stranger to enter.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  I could easily see a police officer shooting her. The thing is, I like that my dog is protective of her home. If you choose to encourage your dog to use violence to protect your home, IMO any consequences are on you. Would it be any different, if you shot an intruder without following the rules of engagement?
  - leesalminen 9y ago
    I think you don't understand what "heeling" is. It's not "violent". Furthermore, dogs (at least mine) do indeed have rules of engagement. They attempt to identify who is entering their home, assess their body language and "vibes" and then make a decision as to what needs to be done. I trust my dogs. Having them around greatly reduces the likeliness of me ever having to resort to real violence (you know, where death is involved).
mmanfrin 9y ago
The Nation has noted a Department of Justice estimate of 10,000 dogs per year killed by police. What in the fuck.
- gorbachev 9y ago
  From the article: "Last year, Reason dug up records showing that two Detroit police officers had killed 100 dogs between them over the course of their careers." If you were to consider your pets as just property, that's going to amount to quite a lot of property damage alone.
  - bluedino 9y ago
    Detroit has thousands of dogs roaming the city, in packs. http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2014/10/detroits_stray_dog_population.html http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2014/10/detroits... They kill other dogs, attack people, they are a huge nuisance.
maxxxxx 9y ago
These guys really seem to operate like an occupying force, not police.
- DINKDINK 9y ago
  People with guns who demand your money and property and want people not in their clique to have property or guns.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vkou 9y ago
Internal affairs will take an officer's word over that of a bystander in a homicide. Why would they do anything different when a dog dies?
StavrosK 9y ago
I was just about to say I can't understand why police officers in the US just kill things at the first sign of inconvenience, but then I realized I understand exactly why: When killing something solves every problem you may have and doesn't really have any downsides for you, why wouldn't you?
- ourmandave 9y ago
  You'd think the downside would be living with the knowledge you killed someone's beloved pet. Cops are people too.
  - snakeanus 9y ago
    This seems like a small price to pay.
  - xkcd-sucks 9y ago
    >Cops are people too The motivation to go home unharmed every night and retire with a pension probably trumps abstract moral considerations
    - valuearb 9y ago
      In this case his motivation was to avoid a few splinters jumping back over the fence.
    - ourmandave 9y ago
      I was thinking of a video where the SWAT guys got the wrong apartment. It's from a team-member's lapel cam. Near the end of it, they have the whole family (mom, dad, and two little kids) in the living room while they're searching the place. The dad is zip-tied, face down on the floor and starts crying out loud when he finds out they shot the family dog. You'd have to be pretty hard core not to have some regret.
      - Simon_says 9y ago
        I don't know the specific video you're talking about, but these kinds of raids point to an overarching problem with the police in the US, and that's the need for aggressive raids of homes, usually of the "no-knock" variety. The reason why police have the need to "no-knock" raid homes is that the crime is drug possession, and the drugs could be flushed or disposed of if there were a lengthy negotiation process to safely get everyone out of the house. Every dog killed in these raids is collateral damage from our idiotic war on drugs.
Apes 9y ago
There is no reason the officer should have drawn his firearm when pepperspray or a baton would have been sufficient in this situation. The tendency to automatically resort to their proverbial nuclear option is ridiculous. We should be training police to effectively use and be comfortable with their entire tool set, rather than just having them default to their firearm. As a side note, in the confusion of an arrest, it's easy for a suspect to not realize how much the situation has escalated, and for a police officer to repeatedly give conflicting orders to a suspect, both of which result in a needless death. Here's an idea: Police should have a loud speaker and strobe light on their uniform that trigger when they unholster their firearm. The speaker should repeat over and over until they re-holster their weapon: "SIREN BLARE A POLICE OFFICER HAS DRAWN THEIR WEAPON. REMAIN STILL UNTIL FURTHER ORDERS OR YOU WILL BE SHOT." The strobe light should trigger constantly to let the deaf know an officer has drawn their weapon. There's two reasons for this: 1. It should make it clear to a suspect that they are dangerously close to being shot, and should very quickly change their behavior 2. An officer should not be allowed to give orders to a surrendering and motionless suspect as long as they have their weapon unholstered. If they wish to give commands to the suspect, they should re-holster their firearm and possibly switch to a less lethal device if the situation calls for it.
- bluedino 9y ago
  On the other hand, you have two unknown dogs approaching you. They are of a potentially dangerous breed, and will likely defend their territory. Sure, your pitbull might be a lover but this type of dog is frequently in the news for biting people and killing children/elderly.
  - ourmandave 9y ago
    Heh, pitbulls. I was at the crowded dog park one weekend and this family showed up with a muzzled pitbull. The first thing it did was attack my dog. Even with the muzzle on it was able to nip my dog in the ass a few times before it got pulled off. But that's not about the pitbull. It's about the asshole who brought his pre-muzzled dog to a dog park knowing it was vicious.
Johnny555 9y ago
I've already warned my family to not, under any circumstances, allow the police to enter our home or yard (without a warrant) while the dogs are there, because there's a good chance that our dogs will end up dead. Even if the officer is there to discuss a robbery, do not allow him in unless the dogs are secured outside the house.
- __jal 9y ago
  It is really an extension of the "Don't talk to cops" rule[1]. I wish I lived in a world where I trusted the police. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
  - diogenescynic 9y ago
    This seems to only be a problem in the US. It's definitely not a problem in Canada or Europe. It seems like it's becoming more and more clear that America is on a very different and worse path compared to other developed Western countries.
    - martalist 9y ago
      It's not a problem in Australia/NZ either.
  - edejong 9y ago
    You live in a world where you can trust police, however you're not in the right country. In most western european countries, the police is actually very reasonable. There are bad apples, for sure, but it's the exception, not the rule.
    - __jal 9y ago
      You (and the other commenter) are right, of course; I do know that. I was using that as a turn of phrase in a context where it was inappropriate. When I visit friends and family in Europe, I'm very aware of the stark difference.
lowbloodsugar 9y ago
Went to July 4th BBQ and someone had brought their dog. "Oh, be careful, he's a jumper." By default, most dogs are jumpers. So what this person was actually announcing to the rest of us is "I have failed to train this dog, and I accept no responsibility for that failure, nor any consequences for it." There were children present and I am very grateful that our hosts asked the person to take their dog away. The abject cluelessness of bringing a "jumper" to party with children to watch fireworks is beyond me. The article makes light of dog bites. "Fear of a dog bite resulted in a child getting shot." I have a family member with permanent disfiguration from a dog bite. Dog bites are serious and can result in permanent disability or death. Likewise, bullet wounds are serious. How we arrive at the conclusion that the police are the problem is nonsense. Clearly the dogs are the problem. Dog owners: Do not bring your volatile, weaponized AI into public spaces. I've witnessed 100lb persons lose control of a 150lb dog. And people were surprised. Dog bites child's face off. "How did this happen?" Bonus points for complaining about gun control while being pulled around by "my big babywaby". Did author manage to find one incident where the action appeared to be unjustified? Sure. Take care of it. But that doesn't magically make the problem of uncontrolled violent animals in public spaces a bad-policing issue.
- girvo 9y ago
  Most of the reports they discuss in the article are dogs being shot in private homes and yards, not public property
- ourmandave 9y ago
  I got bit a neighbor's dog when I was 5. I have very dim memories of it (because it's been a billion years) but he knocked me down and bit me on the back while a group of us were running away. I got home crying and my dad took me back to confront the owner. According to my dad, we were standing in his yard and he had the dog on a leash. He tried to explain that his dog was friendly and let go of the leash. The first thing the dog did was come over and bite my wrist. (I do remember that part!) Apparently 5-year-old me was bacon flavored or something.
- valuearb 9y ago
  The cop lied about the dogs behavior. These dogs weren't aggressive. Doesn't that seem to indicate to you that it's not the first time cops killed dogs that aren't dangerous and then lied about it?
Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
This makes me really sad because those dogs probably have have no idea what happened. They saw a person new to them, heard a loud noise and suddenly their face is in excruciating pain and they don't understand why.
xkcd-sucks 9y ago
The best part is, attacking a police dog is treated as the equivalent of attacking a human police officer.
- rhcom2 9y ago
  This actually isn't true. It is a federal offense to attack a police dog but it doesn't come with nearly the same level of penalty as attacking a human.
mberning 9y ago
Policing in the US operates under a ridiculous warrior ethos. It should be seriously reformed.
ajeet_dhaliwal 9y ago
No explanation of why the police went over the fence into the yard 20 minutes after the security company had already turned off the alarm and it was known the child activated it accidentally.
danschumann 9y ago
Another way tech could help would be putting biometric scanners on cops. If they freak out during medium-level exercises ( lets say a mock-dog attack ), maybe they are not beat cops! Officers should be expected to keep calm, in a sense, their job is delivering calm to situations: de-escalating.
mnm1 9y ago
How about not giving cops guns in the first place? It works in plenty of other countries. Of course, you still have armed police and SWAT teams available for more serious situations. I think short of this, nothing will solve any of the police shooting problems here in the states.

85 points by curtis 9y ago

See also: https://puppycidedb.com/ https://puppycidedb.com/ Or if you just want tales of stupidity, Reason has a nice collection http://reason.com/tags/puppycide http://reason.com/tags/puppycide (if you don't mind the typical Reason editorial positions, and the tone of its coverage). Sample: "Cops Open Gate, Letting Dog Loose, Kill Dog, Cite Owner for Having Dog Loose, Lawsuit Alleges"

dmitrygr 9y ago

So, what you're telling me, is that if you give people with effectively no real accountability loaded weapons, some of them will go on to kill innocents? Say it ain't so!

leesalminen 9y ago

This bothers me. One of my dogs (Australian Cattle Dog) is very protective of her home. Although she behaves very well at others' homes, in public and in cars, once at home she will attempt to "heel" strangers away from the house. She can appear very intimidating. I could easily see a police officer shooting her. The thing is, I like that my dog is protective of her home. It's really comforting to know that if, by chance, I forget to lock my door she will absolutely not allow a stranger to enter.

sliverstorm 9y ago
I could easily see a police officer shooting her. The thing is, I like that my dog is protective of her home. If you choose to encourage your dog to use violence to protect your home, IMO any consequences are on you. Would it be any different, if you shot an intruder without following the rules of engagement?
- leesalminen 9y ago
  I think you don't understand what "heeling" is. It's not "violent". Furthermore, dogs (at least mine) do indeed have rules of engagement. They attempt to identify who is entering their home, assess their body language and "vibes" and then make a decision as to what needs to be done. I trust my dogs. Having them around greatly reduces the likeliness of me ever having to resort to real violence (you know, where death is involved).

mmanfrin 9y ago

The Nation has noted a Department of Justice estimate of 10,000 dogs per year killed by police. What in the fuck.

gorbachev 9y ago
From the article: "Last year, Reason dug up records showing that two Detroit police officers had killed 100 dogs between them over the course of their careers." If you were to consider your pets as just property, that's going to amount to quite a lot of property damage alone.
- bluedino 9y ago
  Detroit has thousands of dogs roaming the city, in packs. http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2014/10/detroits_stray_dog_population.html http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2014/10/detroits... They kill other dogs, attack people, they are a huge nuisance.

maxxxxx 9y ago

These guys really seem to operate like an occupying force, not police.

DINKDINK 9y ago
People with guns who demand your money and property and want people not in their clique to have property or guns.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

vkou 9y ago

Internal affairs will take an officer's word over that of a bystander in a homicide. Why would they do anything different when a dog dies?

StavrosK 9y ago

I was just about to say I can't understand why police officers in the US just kill things at the first sign of inconvenience, but then I realized I understand exactly why: When killing something solves every problem you may have and doesn't really have any downsides for you, why wouldn't you?

ourmandave 9y ago
You'd think the downside would be living with the knowledge you killed someone's beloved pet. Cops are people too.
- snakeanus 9y ago
  This seems like a small price to pay.
- xkcd-sucks 9y ago
  >Cops are people too The motivation to go home unharmed every night and retire with a pension probably trumps abstract moral considerations
  - valuearb 9y ago
    In this case his motivation was to avoid a few splinters jumping back over the fence.
  - ourmandave 9y ago
    I was thinking of a video where the SWAT guys got the wrong apartment. It's from a team-member's lapel cam. Near the end of it, they have the whole family (mom, dad, and two little kids) in the living room while they're searching the place. The dad is zip-tied, face down on the floor and starts crying out loud when he finds out they shot the family dog. You'd have to be pretty hard core not to have some regret.
    - Simon_says 9y ago
      I don't know the specific video you're talking about, but these kinds of raids point to an overarching problem with the police in the US, and that's the need for aggressive raids of homes, usually of the "no-knock" variety. The reason why police have the need to "no-knock" raid homes is that the crime is drug possession, and the drugs could be flushed or disposed of if there were a lengthy negotiation process to safely get everyone out of the house. Every dog killed in these raids is collateral damage from our idiotic war on drugs.

Apes 9y ago

There is no reason the officer should have drawn his firearm when pepperspray or a baton would have been sufficient in this situation. The tendency to automatically resort to their proverbial nuclear option is ridiculous. We should be training police to effectively use and be comfortable with their entire tool set, rather than just having them default to their firearm. As a side note, in the confusion of an arrest, it's easy for a suspect to not realize how much the situation has escalated, and for a police officer to repeatedly give conflicting orders to a suspect, both of which result in a needless death. Here's an idea: Police should have a loud speaker and strobe light on their uniform that trigger when they unholster their firearm. The speaker should repeat over and over until they re-holster their weapon: "SIREN BLARE A POLICE OFFICER HAS DRAWN THEIR WEAPON. REMAIN STILL UNTIL FURTHER ORDERS OR YOU WILL BE SHOT." The strobe light should trigger constantly to let the deaf know an officer has drawn their weapon. There's two reasons for this: 1. It should make it clear to a suspect that they are dangerously close to being shot, and should very quickly change their behavior 2. An officer should not be allowed to give orders to a surrendering and motionless suspect as long as they have their weapon unholstered. If they wish to give commands to the suspect, they should re-holster their firearm and possibly switch to a less lethal device if the situation calls for it.

bluedino 9y ago
On the other hand, you have two unknown dogs approaching you. They are of a potentially dangerous breed, and will likely defend their territory. Sure, your pitbull might be a lover but this type of dog is frequently in the news for biting people and killing children/elderly.
- ourmandave 9y ago
  Heh, pitbulls. I was at the crowded dog park one weekend and this family showed up with a muzzled pitbull. The first thing it did was attack my dog. Even with the muzzle on it was able to nip my dog in the ass a few times before it got pulled off. But that's not about the pitbull. It's about the asshole who brought his pre-muzzled dog to a dog park knowing it was vicious.

Johnny555 9y ago

I've already warned my family to not, under any circumstances, allow the police to enter our home or yard (without a warrant) while the dogs are there, because there's a good chance that our dogs will end up dead. Even if the officer is there to discuss a robbery, do not allow him in unless the dogs are secured outside the house.

__jal 9y ago
It is really an extension of the "Don't talk to cops" rule[1]. I wish I lived in a world where I trusted the police. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
- diogenescynic 9y ago
  This seems to only be a problem in the US. It's definitely not a problem in Canada or Europe. It seems like it's becoming more and more clear that America is on a very different and worse path compared to other developed Western countries.
  - martalist 9y ago
    It's not a problem in Australia/NZ either.
- edejong 9y ago
  You live in a world where you can trust police, however you're not in the right country. In most western european countries, the police is actually very reasonable. There are bad apples, for sure, but it's the exception, not the rule.
  - __jal 9y ago
    You (and the other commenter) are right, of course; I do know that. I was using that as a turn of phrase in a context where it was inappropriate. When I visit friends and family in Europe, I'm very aware of the stark difference.

lowbloodsugar 9y ago

Went to July 4th BBQ and someone had brought their dog. "Oh, be careful, he's a jumper." By default, most dogs are jumpers. So what this person was actually announcing to the rest of us is "I have failed to train this dog, and I accept no responsibility for that failure, nor any consequences for it." There were children present and I am very grateful that our hosts asked the person to take their dog away. The abject cluelessness of bringing a "jumper" to party with children to watch fireworks is beyond me. The article makes light of dog bites. "Fear of a dog bite resulted in a child getting shot." I have a family member with permanent disfiguration from a dog bite. Dog bites are serious and can result in permanent disability or death. Likewise, bullet wounds are serious. How we arrive at the conclusion that the police are the problem is nonsense. Clearly the dogs are the problem. Dog owners: Do not bring your volatile, weaponized AI into public spaces. I've witnessed 100lb persons lose control of a 150lb dog. And people were surprised. Dog bites child's face off. "How did this happen?" Bonus points for complaining about gun control while being pulled around by "my big babywaby". Did author manage to find one incident where the action appeared to be unjustified? Sure. Take care of it. But that doesn't magically make the problem of uncontrolled violent animals in public spaces a bad-policing issue.

girvo 9y ago
Most of the reports they discuss in the article are dogs being shot in private homes and yards, not public property
ourmandave 9y ago
I got bit a neighbor's dog when I was 5. I have very dim memories of it (because it's been a billion years) but he knocked me down and bit me on the back while a group of us were running away. I got home crying and my dad took me back to confront the owner. According to my dad, we were standing in his yard and he had the dog on a leash. He tried to explain that his dog was friendly and let go of the leash. The first thing the dog did was come over and bite my wrist. (I do remember that part!) Apparently 5-year-old me was bacon flavored or something.
valuearb 9y ago
The cop lied about the dogs behavior. These dogs weren't aggressive. Doesn't that seem to indicate to you that it's not the first time cops killed dogs that aren't dangerous and then lied about it?

Sohcahtoa82 9y ago

This makes me really sad because those dogs probably have have no idea what happened. They saw a person new to them, heard a loud noise and suddenly their face is in excruciating pain and they don't understand why.

xkcd-sucks 9y ago

The best part is, attacking a police dog is treated as the equivalent of attacking a human police officer.

rhcom2 9y ago
This actually isn't true. It is a federal offense to attack a police dog but it doesn't come with nearly the same level of penalty as attacking a human.

mberning 9y ago

Policing in the US operates under a ridiculous warrior ethos. It should be seriously reformed.

ajeet_dhaliwal 9y ago

No explanation of why the police went over the fence into the yard 20 minutes after the security company had already turned off the alarm and it was known the child activated it accidentally.

danschumann 9y ago

Another way tech could help would be putting biometric scanners on cops. If they freak out during medium-level exercises ( lets say a mock-dog attack ), maybe they are not beat cops! Officers should be expected to keep calm, in a sense, their job is delivering calm to situations: de-escalating.

mnm1 9y ago

How about not giving cops guns in the first place? It works in plenty of other countries. Of course, you still have armed police and SWAT teams available for more serious situations. I think short of this, nothing will solve any of the police shooting problems here in the states.