8 ms·

This is not going to end well. Human trafficking is already a seriously bad condition in most societies - with this kind of science, I doubt that the black/gre

by mmjaa 9y ago

This is not going to end well. Human trafficking is already a seriously bad condition in most societies - with this kind of science, I doubt that the black/grey markets are going to ignore the fact that there are very, very wealthy people out there, willing to pay for a little youth or two. This really speaks to the ethics of science, and technological morality. The world simply isn't ready for some of these major advances in human life sciences. If, in ten years time, we see the underbelly of human experience exposed as rows and rows of coppertops, pumping vital energy into the matrix, I won't be at all surprised. I hope my kids don't have to live in that world, though.

keymone 9y ago
that is until the market is opened up and regulated. with so many young people around realizing that a thing they constantly produce for free is worth something - there will be no incentive to go through the criminal path. also worth mentioning that this could positively impact young population health as there is now clear monetary incentive to keep your blood healthy. it's a win all around, regulators just have to be careful and not screw it up.
- d--b 9y ago
  Blood is worth a lot, people know that already, and illegal blood farming exists in some countries. But paying for blood increases the risk of people lying about the quality of their blood, which is why the administration doesn't incentivize blood donations. Your argument about criminality is very wrong. Maybe I speak for myself, but I'd much rather be a criminal than a professional blood donor. People are not criminals because they have no other way...
  - keymone 9y ago
    > risk of people lying about the quality of their blood this is where middlemen companies come into play, testing the blood and ensuring level of quality > People are not criminals because they have no other way sorry, i was not clear enough in my comment. what i meant is that opening up the legal way to sell blood reduces the incentive for criminals to do blood farming or human trafficking for the same purpose. much like legalizing marijuana will push drug traffickers out of the market.
  - bko 9y ago
    In the US it's already legal to sell plasma, semen, eggs, bone marrow , breast milk, and rent wombs as a surrogate [0]. The legality of selling blood would not eliminate donations much like the ability to sell clothing does not eliminate clothing donation. Considering that there are negatives to selling blood (e.g. time, marginal risk, inconvenience, etc) I think some form of compensation is fair and would only increase the supply [0] http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/10-body-parts-you-can-legally-sell-for-big-bucks/ http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/10-body-parts-you-can-le...
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      >rent wombs as a surrogate If the tenant stops paying does the baby get delivered prematurely?
  - HarkMamilton 9y ago
    Back in college I donated sperm for money. It's not like I was forced into it; it was just nice to have an extra source of income besides my student job. This also enables sperm banks to retain recurrent donors, which means they can afford to do very rigorous testing amortized over several dozen sperm samples. DNA screening, urine tests, blood tests, etc. That wouldn't be viable under the blood donation model. I've donated blood 5 or 6 times but I doubt even that's enough to make it worth the kind of testing they did on me as a sperm donor.
- gutnor 9y ago
  Western world is already struggling to find enough blood donor, and one of their main source are the students. You would not want to force those students to have to choose between morality and 1 order of magnitude more money than what they can do in the official public blood donation center.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    It is not immoral to sell one's own blood, so long as one is not left unable to fulfill other moral obligations.
    - gutnor 9y ago
      The moral bit is choosing between 2 competing blood donations service - one that is run publicly to save life, the other to extend the life of healthy individual. I make the assumption that the remuneration of the second one will be most likely way bigger than in the first case. The only reason people would chose to donate to the first one is morality which is unfair. The morality of the remuneration is orthogonal. I assumed we were talking about countries where it is moral and legal to remunerate blood donation. I don't think that countries that today do not allow remuneration (for any reason) would allow it for this new use case.
      - HarkMamilton 9y ago
        You can still use blood from a private company for the treatments you would use "public" blood for.
      - Jotra7 9y ago
        Don't try to bring morality into any discussion with the free market religionists. The only true morality is profit. Everything else is just stupid.
  - keymone 9y ago
    i don't buy it. my gut feeling is that loss in number of donors due to incentive to sell will be completely offset by lowering the barrier to giving your blood. companies fighting for customers and public image will start charity programs where some % of sold blood will be donated. there are just many more ways in which blood would be donated into the system with open market than with the closed one.
d--b 9y ago
Yes, blood is rare enough that it's already "farmed". (http://www.medicalbag.com/medicine-abroad/blood-farming-and-illegal-organ-selling/article/472908/ http://www.medicalbag.com/medicine-abroad/blood-farming-and-...) If it is sold as a "rejuvenating cosmetics" with scientific evidence backing it up, it will get bad.
alevskaya 9y ago
I wouldn't be quite so worried. If the effects truly do end up being due to soluble signalling factors in the younger blood (and not immune cell implantation or some other physiologic quirk of the cross-wired parabiosis experimental setup that won't transfer to non-inbred humans) then those factors will be synthesized in bioreactors and made into a synthetic plasma product - that's also the only likely way to make money on this for a therapeutic company.
- Majestic121 9y ago
  That's the only likely way to make money for a legit therapeutic company, but before we have the technology to manufacture young blood cheaply and massively, I think kidnapping people and forcing them to give their blood can be done cheaply and be cost effective for a mafia. I mean, that's already what they do with sex workers
  - jraby3 9y ago
    Why kidnap? Why not just offer $20 per pint and sell it for $200?
    - rothron 9y ago
      Blood banks stopped paying for blood because it attracted the wrong customers, those strapped for cash rather than the idealistic types. As a result quality suffered. Between hospitals blood is bought and sold at the price you mention. Radiolab had an episode about this some time ago.
      - cvsh 9y ago
        >Blood banks stopped paying for blood because it attracted the wrong customers, those strapped for cash rather than the idealistic types. I feel like the market can find a solution for this that's unworkable for blood banks because of regulations, hospital requirements, scale, etc. i.e., force applicants to prescreen their blood and permaban them for lying or if their blood fails drug/illness/etc. checks.
amelius 9y ago
> The world simply isn't ready for some of these major advances in human life sciences. Major advances? Blood transfusions and the whole idea sound quite basic to me.
mrfusion 9y ago
Come on. Let's start with a positive comment. (I think this is one cause of our technological stagnation. Every article about a new technology has a comment like this at the top.)
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  If only you knew how bad things really are.
- thinkfurther 9y ago
  What technological stagnation? > Through our scientific and technological genius we’ve made of this world a neighborhood. And now through our moral and ethical commitment we must make of it a brotherhood. We must all learn to live together as brothers—or we will all perish together as fools. -- Martin Luther King Every time someone makes a comment indicating a modicum of social progress, there's a response like yours not getting it. They're not against technology, they're just for things like a decent world to live in, too. But why not be like Steve Seagal in that MAD TV sketch instead? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_l-4rAUAzQ&t=1m32s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_l-4rAUAzQ&t=1m32s That's our response to Martin Luther King, Albert Einstein, Konrad Zuse, Joseph Weizenbaum and many others. Just wait until they die, then lie to ourselves that we aren't stuck at a set of stairs they climbed, but that this slide into the basement is an elevator that goes up and is much more efficient than the stairs. Ever noticed how the greats don't seem to obsess much about having to die at some point? Maybe they did but kept it to themselves, or they wrote a lot about it and I just missed it. Anecdotally at least it seems that the people who would want immortality are those it would be wasted on, while those that are hard to let go would not accept it. We're like cancer to the tapestry of life, we don't see the beauty of the life around us, we just want to have MOAR of our own. The more mediocre the person the more likely for that to be true. We can do without honey bees, fuck yeah, but we can't do without prolonging the lives of people who didn't grok it in the time they had. Let's loop the broken sounds of all things, maybe in a loop they will be less broken. If you want a positive comment, make a positive situation, and I'll cheerlead gladly.
  - thinkfurther 9y ago
ForRealsies 9y ago
The truth about Human Trafficking will rock the world. The truth will come out soon.

by mmjaa 9y ago

keymone 9y ago

that is until the market is opened up and regulated. with so many young people around realizing that a thing they constantly produce for free is worth something - there will be no incentive to go through the criminal path. also worth mentioning that this could positively impact young population health as there is now clear monetary incentive to keep your blood healthy. it's a win all around, regulators just have to be careful and not screw it up.

d--b 9y ago
Blood is worth a lot, people know that already, and illegal blood farming exists in some countries. But paying for blood increases the risk of people lying about the quality of their blood, which is why the administration doesn't incentivize blood donations. Your argument about criminality is very wrong. Maybe I speak for myself, but I'd much rather be a criminal than a professional blood donor. People are not criminals because they have no other way...
- keymone 9y ago
  > risk of people lying about the quality of their blood this is where middlemen companies come into play, testing the blood and ensuring level of quality > People are not criminals because they have no other way sorry, i was not clear enough in my comment. what i meant is that opening up the legal way to sell blood reduces the incentive for criminals to do blood farming or human trafficking for the same purpose. much like legalizing marijuana will push drug traffickers out of the market.
- bko 9y ago
  In the US it's already legal to sell plasma, semen, eggs, bone marrow , breast milk, and rent wombs as a surrogate [0]. The legality of selling blood would not eliminate donations much like the ability to sell clothing does not eliminate clothing donation. Considering that there are negatives to selling blood (e.g. time, marginal risk, inconvenience, etc) I think some form of compensation is fair and would only increase the supply [0] http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/10-body-parts-you-can-legally-sell-for-big-bucks/ http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/10-body-parts-you-can-le...
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    >rent wombs as a surrogate If the tenant stops paying does the baby get delivered prematurely?
- HarkMamilton 9y ago
  Back in college I donated sperm for money. It's not like I was forced into it; it was just nice to have an extra source of income besides my student job. This also enables sperm banks to retain recurrent donors, which means they can afford to do very rigorous testing amortized over several dozen sperm samples. DNA screening, urine tests, blood tests, etc. That wouldn't be viable under the blood donation model. I've donated blood 5 or 6 times but I doubt even that's enough to make it worth the kind of testing they did on me as a sperm donor.
gutnor 9y ago
Western world is already struggling to find enough blood donor, and one of their main source are the students. You would not want to force those students to have to choose between morality and 1 order of magnitude more money than what they can do in the official public blood donation center.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  It is not immoral to sell one's own blood, so long as one is not left unable to fulfill other moral obligations.
  - gutnor 9y ago
    The moral bit is choosing between 2 competing blood donations service - one that is run publicly to save life, the other to extend the life of healthy individual. I make the assumption that the remuneration of the second one will be most likely way bigger than in the first case. The only reason people would chose to donate to the first one is morality which is unfair. The morality of the remuneration is orthogonal. I assumed we were talking about countries where it is moral and legal to remunerate blood donation. I don't think that countries that today do not allow remuneration (for any reason) would allow it for this new use case.
    - HarkMamilton 9y ago
      You can still use blood from a private company for the treatments you would use "public" blood for.
    - Jotra7 9y ago
      Don't try to bring morality into any discussion with the free market religionists. The only true morality is profit. Everything else is just stupid.
- keymone 9y ago
  i don't buy it. my gut feeling is that loss in number of donors due to incentive to sell will be completely offset by lowering the barrier to giving your blood. companies fighting for customers and public image will start charity programs where some % of sold blood will be donated. there are just many more ways in which blood would be donated into the system with open market than with the closed one.

d--b 9y ago

Yes, blood is rare enough that it's already "farmed". (http://www.medicalbag.com/medicine-abroad/blood-farming-and-illegal-organ-selling/article/472908/ http://www.medicalbag.com/medicine-abroad/blood-farming-and-...) If it is sold as a "rejuvenating cosmetics" with scientific evidence backing it up, it will get bad.

alevskaya 9y ago

I wouldn't be quite so worried. If the effects truly do end up being due to soluble signalling factors in the younger blood (and not immune cell implantation or some other physiologic quirk of the cross-wired parabiosis experimental setup that won't transfer to non-inbred humans) then those factors will be synthesized in bioreactors and made into a synthetic plasma product - that's also the only likely way to make money on this for a therapeutic company.

Majestic121 9y ago
That's the only likely way to make money for a legit therapeutic company, but before we have the technology to manufacture young blood cheaply and massively, I think kidnapping people and forcing them to give their blood can be done cheaply and be cost effective for a mafia. I mean, that's already what they do with sex workers
- jraby3 9y ago
  Why kidnap? Why not just offer $20 per pint and sell it for $200?
  - rothron 9y ago
    Blood banks stopped paying for blood because it attracted the wrong customers, those strapped for cash rather than the idealistic types. As a result quality suffered. Between hospitals blood is bought and sold at the price you mention. Radiolab had an episode about this some time ago.
    - cvsh 9y ago
      >Blood banks stopped paying for blood because it attracted the wrong customers, those strapped for cash rather than the idealistic types. I feel like the market can find a solution for this that's unworkable for blood banks because of regulations, hospital requirements, scale, etc. i.e., force applicants to prescreen their blood and permaban them for lying or if their blood fails drug/illness/etc. checks.

amelius 9y ago

> The world simply isn't ready for some of these major advances in human life sciences. Major advances? Blood transfusions and the whole idea sound quite basic to me.

mrfusion 9y ago

Come on. Let's start with a positive comment. (I think this is one cause of our technological stagnation. Every article about a new technology has a comment like this at the top.)

ForRealsies 9y ago
If only you knew how bad things really are.
thinkfurther 9y ago
What technological stagnation? > Through our scientific and technological genius we’ve made of this world a neighborhood. And now through our moral and ethical commitment we must make of it a brotherhood. We must all learn to live together as brothers—or we will all perish together as fools. -- Martin Luther King Every time someone makes a comment indicating a modicum of social progress, there's a response like yours not getting it. They're not against technology, they're just for things like a decent world to live in, too. But why not be like Steve Seagal in that MAD TV sketch instead? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_l-4rAUAzQ&t=1m32s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_l-4rAUAzQ&t=1m32s That's our response to Martin Luther King, Albert Einstein, Konrad Zuse, Joseph Weizenbaum and many others. Just wait until they die, then lie to ourselves that we aren't stuck at a set of stairs they climbed, but that this slide into the basement is an elevator that goes up and is much more efficient than the stairs. Ever noticed how the greats don't seem to obsess much about having to die at some point? Maybe they did but kept it to themselves, or they wrote a lot about it and I just missed it. Anecdotally at least it seems that the people who would want immortality are those it would be wasted on, while those that are hard to let go would not accept it. We're like cancer to the tapestry of life, we don't see the beauty of the life around us, we just want to have MOAR of our own. The more mediocre the person the more likely for that to be true. We can do without honey bees, fuck yeah, but we can't do without prolonging the lives of people who didn't grok it in the time they had. Let's loop the broken sounds of all things, maybe in a loop they will be less broken. If you want a positive comment, make a positive situation, and I'll cheerlead gladly.
- thinkfurther 9y ago

ForRealsies 9y ago

The truth about Human Trafficking will rock the world. The truth will come out soon.