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Or we can use regulation and taxes to re-internalize externalities of actions like burning coal for power or shipping items via highly polluting container ships

Or we can use regulation and taxes to re-internalize externalities of actions like burning coal for power or shipping items via highly polluting container ships.

harryh 9y ago
Regulation and taxes are a means not an ends. They do not, in and of themselves, fix the problem. They fix the problem by getting people to do the things spodek suggested.
- twobyfour 9y ago
  Yes. They just tend to be much more effective than asking billions of individuals to each take actions that without such regulations and taxes would mean additional cost, inconvenience, and mental overhead compared to alternatives.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  Thats true, but they also do something else which is internalize costs, meaning that people can make better apples to apples comparisons of the true costs of things. Right now climate change emitting energy is unfairly subsidized because the climate change costs are not accounted for.
  - harryh 9y ago
    Oh totally. I'm just pushing back against the idea that taxes are the solution in and of themselves because sometimes I think people hear that and think "Oh, so I can basically keep doing what I'm doing and just pay a bit more in taxes and things will be fine." when it's really "Massive emissions taxes will make your current lifestyle unaffordable so you will be forced to make significant cuts in your energy consumption."
    - twobyfour 9y ago
      Well, when the problem is externalities (carbon emissions are a cost of certain types of energy production, but a cost not paid for by the producer or consumer), the solution is generally to re-internalize the externalities. Taxes are a pretty efficient way to accomplish that. What alternatives would you propose?
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      Right and it will be massive to make a difference. But to me the bigger issue is that the markets are missing a piece of very important information and so are not being very efficient in solving the problem. If we internalize the costs, it works as a lever to change consumption, but in my view more importantly it makes the markets more able to allocate resources correctly.

Or we can use regulation and taxes to re-internalize externalities of actions like burning coal for power or shipping items via highly polluting container ships.

harryh 9y ago

Regulation and taxes are a means not an ends. They do not, in and of themselves, fix the problem. They fix the problem by getting people to do the things spodek suggested.

twobyfour 9y ago
Yes. They just tend to be much more effective than asking billions of individuals to each take actions that without such regulations and taxes would mean additional cost, inconvenience, and mental overhead compared to alternatives.
kasey_junk 9y ago
Thats true, but they also do something else which is internalize costs, meaning that people can make better apples to apples comparisons of the true costs of things. Right now climate change emitting energy is unfairly subsidized because the climate change costs are not accounted for.
- harryh 9y ago
  Oh totally. I'm just pushing back against the idea that taxes are the solution in and of themselves because sometimes I think people hear that and think "Oh, so I can basically keep doing what I'm doing and just pay a bit more in taxes and things will be fine." when it's really "Massive emissions taxes will make your current lifestyle unaffordable so you will be forced to make significant cuts in your energy consumption."
  - twobyfour 9y ago
    Well, when the problem is externalities (carbon emissions are a cost of certain types of energy production, but a cost not paid for by the producer or consumer), the solution is generally to re-internalize the externalities. Taxes are a pretty efficient way to accomplish that. What alternatives would you propose?
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    Right and it will be massive to make a difference. But to me the bigger issue is that the markets are missing a piece of very important information and so are not being very efficient in solving the problem. If we internalize the costs, it works as a lever to change consumption, but in my view more importantly it makes the markets more able to allocate resources correctly.