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As a Korean American, this conflict has always been so strange to me. My family members fought in this war, my grandfather ran from his village, in the middle

by Endama 9y ago

As a Korean American, this conflict has always been so strange to me. My family members fought in this war, my grandfather ran from his village, in the middle of the night, to join the US-led Korean Army so that he wouldn't be conscripted by NK as they moved south. My mom's father joined as an intelligence officer and later continued on to work in the middle east for the US gov. That left his wife (my grandmother) to raise a family of 4 by herself in a war torn country. My entire cultural experience has been defined by this "police action". My grandfather who fled would later be awarded the Korean equivalent of a bronze star and would suffer from PTSD for the rest of his life. He was violent towards his children (including my father) often, but was able to raise a future for my family nonetheless. Now as a native-born US citizen, the narrative I hear is of doom and gloom, NK is just weeks, if not hours, away from nuking me in SF. China is the only way to get them to stop and they aren't helping. What I hear from my Native-born Korean friends is a lot of nonchalance. The North Korean threat is all bluster, no action. Nothing is ever going to happen. They are going to threaten, maybe shoot some artillery, but no major offensive ever happens. All of this makes for an incredibly confusing experience. I feel like we are approaching a historical precipice, but my two cultures respond with either panic or apathy.

0xbear 9y ago
I wonder if they'd be as nonchalant if US military support were withdrawn. It's like a school boy being nonchalant about bullies because he's friends with Conor McGregor.
azernik 9y ago
Going from the similar Israeli experience (back in the bad old days of conventional state-to-state confrontation) - it's all bluster, it's never going to happen, until suddenly it does. Usually when the bluster (as in 1967) leads to an unexpected commitment to action.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
> What I hear from my Native-born Korean friends is a lot of nonchalance. The North Korean threat is all bluster, no action. Nothing is ever going to happen. They are going to threaten, maybe shoot some artillery, but no major offensive ever happens. I bet that since they live it, if they freaked out they would have no chance of having normal lives, so they just blow it off as a form of cognitive dissonance. If that is the case, I really wouldn't blame them.
komali2 9y ago
Hah, I wonder if you're my coworker, we just had this argument during lunch today (about whether NK missiles are a threat to us in Mountain View). >What I hear from my native-born Korean friends is a lot of nonchalance. The NK threat is all bluster, no action. Nothing is ever going to happen. I remember this from my time living in Japan and Taiwan - everyone was convinced NK was not a threat because it hadn't been... in their lifetimes. I see it here in the States too - "The USA is immune to revolution / constitutional crisis / splitting into a confederacy / totalitarianism." Intelligent people can read history books and know these things happened in the past, but these things can then seem like "the stuff that happens in history book." They're not real, that's not real life stuff. I heard it from a close family friend about heart attacks, and then he had one, and then it became real. For him. And his family. But they remain unreal to the other morbidly obese people I know. Car crashes, heat stroke, being sued to bankruptcy, etc. Anything even slightly outside the norm, we're generally incapable of internalizing and planning for. It's just too "unreal." I don't know how to solve this, I just observe it and do my best to adopt a mindset for myself that nothing is too "unreal" to happen, especially if it has happened before or to other people.
- owebmaster 9y ago
  Sometimes a turning point happens and something that looked unreal becomes real. Look at Libya and Syria from 10 years ago and today. Most people there probably didn't see it coming, and most still don't understand why did it happened.
vintageseltzer 9y ago
A big reason for the doom and gloom narrative that you constantly hear in the US is government-media propaganda efforts to manufacture citizens' consent for constant war in order to fuel the military-industrial complex. This has been happening since at least the 50s.
ourmandave 9y ago
The North Korean threat is all bluster, no action. Nothing is ever going to happen. All that bluster is a very dangerous game and I don't understand why Kim plays it. It would be Mutually Assured Destruction without the Mutually, unless China joined in. My thought is he wants The Bomb so he doesn't go the way of Sadam, Gaddafi, or Noriega if he's considered "no longer useful." I think we're on a very short path to a nuclear armed South Korea. But that's like putting missiles in Cuba. D=
- owebmaster 9y ago
  > All that bluster is a very dangerous game and I don't understand why Kim plays it. It is not difficult to understand. They consider the US and South Korea a threat to their existence and, as you pointed out, he doesn't want to finish like Saddam and Gaddafi and NK the new Iraq or Libya.
  - vkou 9y ago
    I don't understand why you are being downvoted. 1. The United States and South Korea are indeed an existential threat to Kim's government. 2. Nuclear weapons will guarantee that North Korea won't see a regime change anytime soon.
- azernik 9y ago
  Because the confrontation, and the perception of strength, is essential to the regime's legitimacy.
  - owebmaster 9y ago
    Which regime? South Korean, North Korean, Chinese or American?
    - azernik 9y ago
      North Korean. The Chinese and South Korean systems both base their legitimacy on economic success (to the extent that people are seriously worried about China's political stability if growth slows down too much), and the American one is based on an interesting self-righteous moralism.
yongjik 9y ago
As a South Korean currently living in the US, let me add my perspective: 1. North Korea ceased to be an "existential threat" to South Korea a very long time ago. According to Wikipedia, South Korea's GDP is 1.4466 trillion USD; North Korea's is estimated to be 25 billion USD. That's a factor of 58. For comparison, USA's GDP is 17.95 trillion USD. Cuba's is 77.15 billion USD. That's a factor of 233. So, see how much Americans feel threatened by Castro these days, and multiply that by four. 2. The only way they could be a major threat is if they go suicidal. However, they are not ISIS: Kim Jong Un has no intention of becoming a martyr. (Of course, he has a lot to gain by looking like a crazy, unstable dictator who could start a war any day: North Korea is the master of this mode of "crazy diplomacy".) However, in the extremely unlikely case that Kim decides to go full nuclear, ironically, all these nuclear missiles would make little difference to South Korea. North Korea has millions of soldiers and enough conventional weapons to burn Seoul down to ground. Adding one Hiroshima-size nuke or two will be... well, like adding one Hiroshima to the whole Pacific War, I guess. This makes about half of South Koreans go "meh" at the news of yet another nuclear test. They can already kill us, and if they do, they will be killed, too. Everybody knows that. Nothing has changed. Of course, America does not like having such a "rogue" nation with a nuclear missile that can hit San Francisco, so all this posturing is basically targeted advertisement for the US. I think they are saying, "Look at me, we have nukes now, so you will be sorry if you attack us!" They're trying to cut some kind of deal with the US. (Of course it may actually provoke US into some "preemptive strike," so it's a very risky gambit, for them and also for the whole East Asia. But when did they ever care for human lives anyway?)
- thephyber 9y ago
  I largely agree with you, except > he has a lot to gain by looking like a crazy, unstable dictator who could start a war any day: North Korea is the master of this mode of "crazy diplomacy". I agree that KJU is acting and he is doing it for self-preservation reasons, but we also have a president that seems to want to try and play the same "unstable, wildcard" foreign policy. > America does not like having such a "rogue" nation with a nuclear missile that can hit San Francisco I'm not sure red states would mind that much if San Francisco were gone.
thephyber 9y ago
The observation that native S Koreans are unaffected by the threat and US S Koreans are stimulated by it is interesting. My observation is that we tend to remember the oversimplified ends of the spectrum and that almost everyone exists more in the gray area between the poles. It's likely that those who live in S Korea are used to hearing many small nuggets of news about the N Korean conflict, so they are desensitized by it. The US news gives N Korea very little time in the headlines except during the occasional announcement when they did something dramatic, which trains Americans to think that everything N Korea does is dramatic. Also, the US doesn't have television shows that treat N Koreans (defectors) as humans -- we only have shows that talk about N Korea in the context of spies, military, or some other aggressive/nefarious way. > the narrative I hear is of doom and gloom, NK is just weeks, if not hours, away from nuking me in SF Where do you think this narrative comes from? The US corporate media companies push that because it's a juicy news story (even if there's nothing "new" about it). The DoD and State Department also manage to coordinate their their message when appearing on news shows -- through current and former military / intelligence leaders. It's not something I interpret as an organic feeling that the average person has. People on the street still talk about Trump, the economy / stock market -- not so much about NKorea or KJU.

by Endama 9y ago

0xbear 9y ago

I wonder if they'd be as nonchalant if US military support were withdrawn. It's like a school boy being nonchalant about bullies because he's friends with Conor McGregor.

azernik 9y ago

Going from the similar Israeli experience (back in the bad old days of conventional state-to-state confrontation) - it's all bluster, it's never going to happen, until suddenly it does. Usually when the bluster (as in 1967) leads to an unexpected commitment to action.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

> What I hear from my Native-born Korean friends is a lot of nonchalance. The North Korean threat is all bluster, no action. Nothing is ever going to happen. They are going to threaten, maybe shoot some artillery, but no major offensive ever happens. I bet that since they live it, if they freaked out they would have no chance of having normal lives, so they just blow it off as a form of cognitive dissonance. If that is the case, I really wouldn't blame them.

komali2 9y ago

Hah, I wonder if you're my coworker, we just had this argument during lunch today (about whether NK missiles are a threat to us in Mountain View). >What I hear from my native-born Korean friends is a lot of nonchalance. The NK threat is all bluster, no action. Nothing is ever going to happen. I remember this from my time living in Japan and Taiwan - everyone was convinced NK was not a threat because it hadn't been... in their lifetimes. I see it here in the States too - "The USA is immune to revolution / constitutional crisis / splitting into a confederacy / totalitarianism." Intelligent people can read history books and know these things happened in the past, but these things can then seem like "the stuff that happens in history book." They're not real, that's not real life stuff. I heard it from a close family friend about heart attacks, and then he had one, and then it became real. For him. And his family. But they remain unreal to the other morbidly obese people I know. Car crashes, heat stroke, being sued to bankruptcy, etc. Anything even slightly outside the norm, we're generally incapable of internalizing and planning for. It's just too "unreal." I don't know how to solve this, I just observe it and do my best to adopt a mindset for myself that nothing is too "unreal" to happen, especially if it has happened before or to other people.

owebmaster 9y ago
Sometimes a turning point happens and something that looked unreal becomes real. Look at Libya and Syria from 10 years ago and today. Most people there probably didn't see it coming, and most still don't understand why did it happened.

vintageseltzer 9y ago

A big reason for the doom and gloom narrative that you constantly hear in the US is government-media propaganda efforts to manufacture citizens' consent for constant war in order to fuel the military-industrial complex. This has been happening since at least the 50s.

ourmandave 9y ago

The North Korean threat is all bluster, no action. Nothing is ever going to happen. All that bluster is a very dangerous game and I don't understand why Kim plays it. It would be Mutually Assured Destruction without the Mutually, unless China joined in. My thought is he wants The Bomb so he doesn't go the way of Sadam, Gaddafi, or Noriega if he's considered "no longer useful." I think we're on a very short path to a nuclear armed South Korea. But that's like putting missiles in Cuba. D=

owebmaster 9y ago
> All that bluster is a very dangerous game and I don't understand why Kim plays it. It is not difficult to understand. They consider the US and South Korea a threat to their existence and, as you pointed out, he doesn't want to finish like Saddam and Gaddafi and NK the new Iraq or Libya.
- vkou 9y ago
  I don't understand why you are being downvoted. 1. The United States and South Korea are indeed an existential threat to Kim's government. 2. Nuclear weapons will guarantee that North Korea won't see a regime change anytime soon.
azernik 9y ago
Because the confrontation, and the perception of strength, is essential to the regime's legitimacy.
- owebmaster 9y ago
  Which regime? South Korean, North Korean, Chinese or American?
  - azernik 9y ago
    North Korean. The Chinese and South Korean systems both base their legitimacy on economic success (to the extent that people are seriously worried about China's political stability if growth slows down too much), and the American one is based on an interesting self-righteous moralism.

yongjik 9y ago

As a South Korean currently living in the US, let me add my perspective: 1. North Korea ceased to be an "existential threat" to South Korea a very long time ago. According to Wikipedia, South Korea's GDP is 1.4466 trillion USD; North Korea's is estimated to be 25 billion USD. That's a factor of 58. For comparison, USA's GDP is 17.95 trillion USD. Cuba's is 77.15 billion USD. That's a factor of 233. So, see how much Americans feel threatened by Castro these days, and multiply that by four. 2. The only way they could be a major threat is if they go suicidal. However, they are not ISIS: Kim Jong Un has no intention of becoming a martyr. (Of course, he has a lot to gain by looking like a crazy, unstable dictator who could start a war any day: North Korea is the master of this mode of "crazy diplomacy".) However, in the extremely unlikely case that Kim decides to go full nuclear, ironically, all these nuclear missiles would make little difference to South Korea. North Korea has millions of soldiers and enough conventional weapons to burn Seoul down to ground. Adding one Hiroshima-size nuke or two will be... well, like adding one Hiroshima to the whole Pacific War, I guess. This makes about half of South Koreans go "meh" at the news of yet another nuclear test. They can already kill us, and if they do, they will be killed, too. Everybody knows that. Nothing has changed. Of course, America does not like having such a "rogue" nation with a nuclear missile that can hit San Francisco, so all this posturing is basically targeted advertisement for the US. I think they are saying, "Look at me, we have nukes now, so you will be sorry if you attack us!" They're trying to cut some kind of deal with the US. (Of course it may actually provoke US into some "preemptive strike," so it's a very risky gambit, for them and also for the whole East Asia. But when did they ever care for human lives anyway?)

thephyber 9y ago
I largely agree with you, except > he has a lot to gain by looking like a crazy, unstable dictator who could start a war any day: North Korea is the master of this mode of "crazy diplomacy". I agree that KJU is acting and he is doing it for self-preservation reasons, but we also have a president that seems to want to try and play the same "unstable, wildcard" foreign policy. > America does not like having such a "rogue" nation with a nuclear missile that can hit San Francisco I'm not sure red states would mind that much if San Francisco were gone.

thephyber 9y ago

The observation that native S Koreans are unaffected by the threat and US S Koreans are stimulated by it is interesting. My observation is that we tend to remember the oversimplified ends of the spectrum and that almost everyone exists more in the gray area between the poles. It's likely that those who live in S Korea are used to hearing many small nuggets of news about the N Korean conflict, so they are desensitized by it. The US news gives N Korea very little time in the headlines except during the occasional announcement when they did something dramatic, which trains Americans to think that everything N Korea does is dramatic. Also, the US doesn't have television shows that treat N Koreans (defectors) as humans -- we only have shows that talk about N Korea in the context of spies, military, or some other aggressive/nefarious way. > the narrative I hear is of doom and gloom, NK is just weeks, if not hours, away from nuking me in SF Where do you think this narrative comes from? The US corporate media companies push that because it's a juicy news story (even if there's nothing "new" about it). The DoD and State Department also manage to coordinate their their message when appearing on news shows -- through current and former military / intelligence leaders. It's not something I interpret as an organic feeling that the average person has. People on the street still talk about Trump, the economy / stock market -- not so much about NKorea or KJU.