15 ms·

I went to college just as laptops were starting to become ubiquitous, but I never saw the point of them in class. I still think they're pretty useless for math,

by imgabe 9y ago

I went to college just as laptops were starting to become ubiquitous, but I never saw the point of them in class. I still think they're pretty useless for math, engineering, and science classes where you need to draw symbols and diagrams that you can't easily type. Even for topics where you can write prose notes, I always found it more helpful to be able to arrange them spatially in a way that made sense rather than the limited order of a text editor or word processor.

eduren 9y ago
I went to a state engineering college that provided students with tablet-style laptops so that you could fold the screen down and jot notes+diagrams with a stylus. It was really nice because some of the professors were flexible enough to accept tablet-written homework (one even required it as everybody had the requisite device). I knew plenty of fellow students that eschewed paper notes during their time there.
- dyarosla 9y ago
  Out of curiosity, what laptop model and software combo?
  - eduren 9y ago
    The school has been purchasing laptops from the Fujitsu Lifebook T series for a few years now. They swapped out old models for each student after 4 years of use. Back when I attended, most people were on the Fujitsu Lifebook t901 I think, but looking at their IT site now, the latest models the school uses are http://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/tablets/lifebook-t726/ http://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/tablets/.... I loved those tablets, the stylus and screen digitizer felt top notch back when I used them. Software-wise, most students used OneNote for note taking/annotating text and a few professors required https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Journal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Journal for assignments. Not sure the preferred approach these days as Journal seems dead.
  - discreditable 9y ago
    Speaking for myself, in college (2008-2012) I used an HP EliteBook 2760p. It was a very solid device and I was able to completely eliminate carrying paper binders/folders by using that machine. The software I used for handwritten notes was Microsoft OneNote. It was even somewhat successful at translating my scrawl into text behind the scenes in order to make my handwritten notes completely searchable.
RaitoBezarius 9y ago
While your argument makes sense, I just want to point out that laptops for maths, engineering and science are not useless if you type sufficiently fast [1] and "master" [2] LaTeX. And I know of one person who actually does it in chemistry, his notes are stunning and complete (which makes him love to look at them and improve them). As for myself, I use pandoc (Markdown + LaTeX + a long set of custom commands accumulated during lectures) to take notes of mathematics (and it can get ugly sometimes with matrices, which require me to resort to SAGE generating the good LaTeX instead of me.) And, the advantage? I can actively listen and participate to proofs while taking complete notes quickly. As for the spatial problem, I agree that for certain topics, it makes sense, but the cost / quality provided by a laptop was a lot higher, though I take the time to do some sketch on paper and work my drafts on paper because it's a lot faster than on a computer. Second point regarding spatial organisation: You can use mental maps to build spatial representations, along the way, there should be some tool to build any kind of spatial representation. tl;dr: It is actually possible to take notes on laptop for subjects like maths, engineering and science thanks to tools like Pandoc and LaTeX, though it's still preferable to use paper for drafts and problem solving or to organise spatially your knowledge. [1]: depends on your lecturer's speed, in fact. [2]: mastered for the stuff you have to type (e.g. diagrams, advanced maths, etc…).
e12e 9y ago
I think devices like the surface pro have shown that we have the technology needed for more advanced io now - we just need proper CAD programs and symbolic math packages that work well with pen/touch input - much along the lines of original Sketchpad[s]. In the same vein, I think "notebooks" of the Jupyter style for R, mathlab or Julia etc - could be a great addition to many classes - allowing interactive exploration etc. It's an odd time to think computers won't be transformative to learning (also in the classroom) - because we just got useful hardware in affordable packaging. True, the past decades, computers could probably help better with writing projects - but I know of few places that for example simply let students cooperate on writing up projects with their own wikimedia instance - rather than using crappy dtp/word processors. On the other hand, I don't think I knew anyone that got top marks on essays in high school who worked only by hand - it's a slow process to work through two-three drafts of a multi-page essay by hand. [s] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad
- panda88888 9y ago
  TBH Surface Pro, iPad Pro et al compared to paper is like NTSC vs 4K. The resolution and precision on digital writing surfaces are abysmal compared to paper. I tried taking notes on Surface Pro with OneNote and gave up because it feels like writing with crayons.
snakeanus 9y ago
> I still think they're pretty useless for math, engineering, and science classes where you need to draw symbols and diagrams that you can't easily type I use latex for special symbols and some diagrams. I do the rest of the diagrams with some form of painting/vector program or ascii art. > rather than the limited order of a text editor or word processor What do you mean by that?

by imgabe 9y ago

eduren 9y ago

I went to a state engineering college that provided students with tablet-style laptops so that you could fold the screen down and jot notes+diagrams with a stylus. It was really nice because some of the professors were flexible enough to accept tablet-written homework (one even required it as everybody had the requisite device). I knew plenty of fellow students that eschewed paper notes during their time there.

dyarosla 9y ago
Out of curiosity, what laptop model and software combo?
- eduren 9y ago
  The school has been purchasing laptops from the Fujitsu Lifebook T series for a few years now. They swapped out old models for each student after 4 years of use. Back when I attended, most people were on the Fujitsu Lifebook t901 I think, but looking at their IT site now, the latest models the school uses are http://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/tablets/lifebook-t726/ http://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/tablets/.... I loved those tablets, the stylus and screen digitizer felt top notch back when I used them. Software-wise, most students used OneNote for note taking/annotating text and a few professors required https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Journal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Journal for assignments. Not sure the preferred approach these days as Journal seems dead.
- discreditable 9y ago
  Speaking for myself, in college (2008-2012) I used an HP EliteBook 2760p. It was a very solid device and I was able to completely eliminate carrying paper binders/folders by using that machine. The software I used for handwritten notes was Microsoft OneNote. It was even somewhat successful at translating my scrawl into text behind the scenes in order to make my handwritten notes completely searchable.

RaitoBezarius 9y ago

While your argument makes sense, I just want to point out that laptops for maths, engineering and science are not useless if you type sufficiently fast [1] and "master" [2] LaTeX. And I know of one person who actually does it in chemistry, his notes are stunning and complete (which makes him love to look at them and improve them). As for myself, I use pandoc (Markdown + LaTeX + a long set of custom commands accumulated during lectures) to take notes of mathematics (and it can get ugly sometimes with matrices, which require me to resort to SAGE generating the good LaTeX instead of me.) And, the advantage? I can actively listen and participate to proofs while taking complete notes quickly. As for the spatial problem, I agree that for certain topics, it makes sense, but the cost / quality provided by a laptop was a lot higher, though I take the time to do some sketch on paper and work my drafts on paper because it's a lot faster than on a computer. Second point regarding spatial organisation: You can use mental maps to build spatial representations, along the way, there should be some tool to build any kind of spatial representation. tl;dr: It is actually possible to take notes on laptop for subjects like maths, engineering and science thanks to tools like Pandoc and LaTeX, though it's still preferable to use paper for drafts and problem solving or to organise spatially your knowledge. [1]: depends on your lecturer's speed, in fact. [2]: mastered for the stuff you have to type (e.g. diagrams, advanced maths, etc…).

e12e 9y ago

I think devices like the surface pro have shown that we have the technology needed for more advanced io now - we just need proper CAD programs and symbolic math packages that work well with pen/touch input - much along the lines of original Sketchpad[s]. In the same vein, I think "notebooks" of the Jupyter style for R, mathlab or Julia etc - could be a great addition to many classes - allowing interactive exploration etc. It's an odd time to think computers won't be transformative to learning (also in the classroom) - because we just got useful hardware in affordable packaging. True, the past decades, computers could probably help better with writing projects - but I know of few places that for example simply let students cooperate on writing up projects with their own wikimedia instance - rather than using crappy dtp/word processors. On the other hand, I don't think I knew anyone that got top marks on essays in high school who worked only by hand - it's a slow process to work through two-three drafts of a multi-page essay by hand. [s] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad

panda88888 9y ago
TBH Surface Pro, iPad Pro et al compared to paper is like NTSC vs 4K. The resolution and precision on digital writing surfaces are abysmal compared to paper. I tried taking notes on Surface Pro with OneNote and gave up because it feels like writing with crayons.

snakeanus 9y ago

> I still think they're pretty useless for math, engineering, and science classes where you need to draw symbols and diagrams that you can't easily type I use latex for special symbols and some diagrams. I do the rest of the diagrams with some form of painting/vector program or ascii art. > rather than the limited order of a text editor or word processor What do you mean by that?