4 ms·

Schools (at least around here) do not hold kids back anymore. No matter what. Some of them get behind in one or more subjects (math, say) as early as 1st or 2n

by ashark 9y ago

Schools (at least around here) do not hold kids back anymore. No matter what. Some of them get behind in one or more subjects (math, say) as early as 1st or 2nd grade and all their later teachers are stuck trying to give them the remedial math help the desperately need, while teaching their other students on-grade-level material, and also trying to teach the remedial kids enough of the new stuff that their scores on that year's standardized test don't land the teacher in hot water (though the kids won't get it at all). The result is that the kids fall farther behind every year but keep failing up to the next grade. They'll enter e.g. 6th grade with ~Dec. of 3rd grade math skills (more often than not their other subjects aren't much farther along, though not always). If they get an LD diagnosis they'll get some extra help but by then it's too late. It sucks for all concerned.

throwawayjava 9y ago
Tying students' progress through the curriculum to their age is silly. If you think about it for a single second, the whole thing is totally absurd. Vague pre-puberty/tween/teenager distinctions make sense, but within each grouping/building? totally unmotivated. Yearly age-to-competency distinctions continue by sheer force of tradition, and are harmful to all but the totally mythological "average" student.
- inanutshellus 9y ago
  But it works at-scale, which is where the focus is. Bang-for-the-taxpayer-buck. Further, socially-speaking, being with your actual peers is extremely valuable, obviously. But yes, the ideal would be a tailored-to-each-child education. Personally, having seen the power of a good Montessori education, I think it's frickin' genius and should be the template for all education (specifically the grouping of 3 yrs together -- e.g. 3,4,5-year-olds together), so kids are perpetually working through the cycle of "look up to someone, mimic someone, mentor someone". ... but I digress. Fact is, grouping by age works socially and it's much, much cheaper than a tailored education, which is all we an afford (get taxpayers to pay for). At some point, I expect a software company to make headway in this space and you'd see a bunch of kids staring at iPads all day and a bored teacher playing Minecraft at the front of the room, only engaging when someone gets stuck.
  - taco_emoji 9y ago
    Not being argumentative -- is the current system actually cheaper? I'm not enormously familiar with Montessori, but is the student/teacher ratio vastly different, or are the various learning materials any more expensive over time than the books, computers, and reams of paper that traditional schools use?
  - dyarosla 9y ago
    Cheaper? I also don't know if that's necessarily true. If it's ineffective for many, is it a cheaper solution or just simply cheaper? Personally, I think Khan Academy is one of the few forward-thinking organizations doing something right in education. It tries to skew learning towards a 'mastery-based' model which keeps kids from falling behind by not advancing them too early. Of course, teachers and parents still need to implement the usage of Khan Academy in this way for it to be effective.
  - emilecantin 9y ago
    My kids are homeschooled, and I'm in charge of teaching Math, because my wife is one of those "I suck at math" people. Her parents focused exclusively on memorization when they helped her with homework, and then she got a few bad teachers, so her mental models are completely off. She's getting better, but that's not really my point. The math program I use with my kids is this one: http://www.defimath.ca/ecole-maison/ http://www.defimath.ca/ecole-maison/ (in French) It was developed by two mathematicians who actually studied in classrooms what worked on kids when teaching math. They've come up with a method where kids learn negative numbers and multiplication _before_ learning positional numeration (numbers greater than 10, with units, tens, hundreds, thousands, etc.). I've seen first-hand how these concepts just click in my daughter's mind, and how she often comes up with the new concept herself when you introduce the prerequisites in an order that makes sense to her.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      They learn about negative numbers and multiplication before they learn to count past ten? Or they just learn counting without learning how to write the numbers?
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Tying students' progress through the curriculum to their age is silly. If you think about it for a single second, the whole thing is totally absurd. Sounds quite logical to me. If we assume a gaussian distribution (which tests seem to verify), most kids of the same age will have the same skills/level. So at worse you mismatch what's taught to some kids towards the edges, whose level there are ways to accommodate anyway in most school systems (skipping a class or two for extra smart kids, or staying behind/supplementary teaching for less than average smarts). And it's not just about learning and who can cram more into one's head (akin to e.g. preparation for the Olympics), but also about sharing the same teenager and adult-making experiences as other kids of your age, which is probably even more important that what's actually taught (the majority of which most people will forget anyway).
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    > Sounds quite logical to me. If we assume a gaussian distribution In this context, Gaussian is a pretty useless assumption without fixing a variance. Proposed alternatives range from "already implemented" to "totally infeasible" depending on variance. > which tests seem to verify Not really. For each individual subject area, maybe, and again, Gaussian is pretty uninformative. But the odds of a student being "average" in every subject area != the odds of a student being "average" in a given subject area. > whose level there are ways to accommodate anyway in most school systems Except the whole point is that there are not currently ways to accommodate this in most school systems! From GP: >> Schools (at least around here) do not hold kids back anymore. No matter what. Also notice that holding back a student in math is possibly net detrimental if the student is not also behind in English and Science. > but also about sharing the same teenager and adult-making experiences as other kids of your age, which is probably even more important that what's actually taught Again, the prepubescent/tween/teen division is much less granular/restrictive than the competency-by-age-X division.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Sounds a bit circular: when we test kids taught in single age groupings they have "narrowly" grouped grades. Therefore we should teach then in single age groupings because they have narrowly grouped grades. That doesn't really help us to know if the top achievers are being held back, for example. Perhaps we can speculate that lower achievers are being pulled up? Outside school you're almost always going to be in age diverse groups; I think a larger element of that in public schools would be better. IMO it helps to emphasise that children are there to make their own education and not simply to be part of an age defined peer group where it appears you're doing something just because of your age, not because of the educational opportunity.
taco_emoji 9y ago
Yeah. To my mind, the problem is that learning is very individualized (not even taking into account learning disabilities!), and yet mainstream U.S. pedagogical theories really only target the middle of the bell curve. What's needed -- at least for a huge chunk of students -- is something more like Montessori, where a learner who's struggling can receive individualized attention from a teacher or a peer, and where the learner has free access to tactile/visual/whatever aids which may be overkill for most other learners, AND -- perhaps most importantly -- where the natural human tendency to sit and focus for hours at a time on a single task is fostered and encouraged.
- brlewis 9y ago
  Montessori is awesome when done right. It's also easy to get wrong. Moving an entire educational system over to it is a formidable task.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bb611 9y ago
There is plenty of research that holding kids back isn't actually an effective intervention, for example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022440506000550 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022440506... Retained students (the current terminology for "held back") are much more likely to stop attending school early, and on average do not see larger academic gains in their year retained than their equivalent peers who are not retained. The ONLY effective intervention is dramatically increased services for that student, delivered rapidly once the deficiency is detected. Many high performing charter school networks actually use this systematically, but only by overworking their teachers and generally burning them out within 5 years (retention rates at 5 years are frequently <10%, compared to 50% in the broader profession). Most teachers in mainstream district schools are covered by union contracts that limit their required working hours, so for the vast majority of schools even this isn't an option. Actually delivering these services in a sustainable manner is a financial burden American taxpayers appear largely unwilling to shoulder.

by ashark 9y ago

throwawayjava 9y ago

Tying students' progress through the curriculum to their age is silly. If you think about it for a single second, the whole thing is totally absurd. Vague pre-puberty/tween/teenager distinctions make sense, but within each grouping/building? totally unmotivated. Yearly age-to-competency distinctions continue by sheer force of tradition, and are harmful to all but the totally mythological "average" student.

inanutshellus 9y ago
But it works at-scale, which is where the focus is. Bang-for-the-taxpayer-buck. Further, socially-speaking, being with your actual peers is extremely valuable, obviously. But yes, the ideal would be a tailored-to-each-child education. Personally, having seen the power of a good Montessori education, I think it's frickin' genius and should be the template for all education (specifically the grouping of 3 yrs together -- e.g. 3,4,5-year-olds together), so kids are perpetually working through the cycle of "look up to someone, mimic someone, mentor someone". ... but I digress. Fact is, grouping by age works socially and it's much, much cheaper than a tailored education, which is all we an afford (get taxpayers to pay for). At some point, I expect a software company to make headway in this space and you'd see a bunch of kids staring at iPads all day and a bored teacher playing Minecraft at the front of the room, only engaging when someone gets stuck.
- taco_emoji 9y ago
  Not being argumentative -- is the current system actually cheaper? I'm not enormously familiar with Montessori, but is the student/teacher ratio vastly different, or are the various learning materials any more expensive over time than the books, computers, and reams of paper that traditional schools use?
- dyarosla 9y ago
  Cheaper? I also don't know if that's necessarily true. If it's ineffective for many, is it a cheaper solution or just simply cheaper? Personally, I think Khan Academy is one of the few forward-thinking organizations doing something right in education. It tries to skew learning towards a 'mastery-based' model which keeps kids from falling behind by not advancing them too early. Of course, teachers and parents still need to implement the usage of Khan Academy in this way for it to be effective.
- emilecantin 9y ago
  My kids are homeschooled, and I'm in charge of teaching Math, because my wife is one of those "I suck at math" people. Her parents focused exclusively on memorization when they helped her with homework, and then she got a few bad teachers, so her mental models are completely off. She's getting better, but that's not really my point. The math program I use with my kids is this one: http://www.defimath.ca/ecole-maison/ http://www.defimath.ca/ecole-maison/ (in French) It was developed by two mathematicians who actually studied in classrooms what worked on kids when teaching math. They've come up with a method where kids learn negative numbers and multiplication _before_ learning positional numeration (numbers greater than 10, with units, tens, hundreds, thousands, etc.). I've seen first-hand how these concepts just click in my daughter's mind, and how she often comes up with the new concept herself when you introduce the prerequisites in an order that makes sense to her.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    They learn about negative numbers and multiplication before they learn to count past ten? Or they just learn counting without learning how to write the numbers?
coldtea 9y ago
>Tying students' progress through the curriculum to their age is silly. If you think about it for a single second, the whole thing is totally absurd. Sounds quite logical to me. If we assume a gaussian distribution (which tests seem to verify), most kids of the same age will have the same skills/level. So at worse you mismatch what's taught to some kids towards the edges, whose level there are ways to accommodate anyway in most school systems (skipping a class or two for extra smart kids, or staying behind/supplementary teaching for less than average smarts). And it's not just about learning and who can cram more into one's head (akin to e.g. preparation for the Olympics), but also about sharing the same teenager and adult-making experiences as other kids of your age, which is probably even more important that what's actually taught (the majority of which most people will forget anyway).
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > Sounds quite logical to me. If we assume a gaussian distribution In this context, Gaussian is a pretty useless assumption without fixing a variance. Proposed alternatives range from "already implemented" to "totally infeasible" depending on variance. > which tests seem to verify Not really. For each individual subject area, maybe, and again, Gaussian is pretty uninformative. But the odds of a student being "average" in every subject area != the odds of a student being "average" in a given subject area. > whose level there are ways to accommodate anyway in most school systems Except the whole point is that there are not currently ways to accommodate this in most school systems! From GP: >> Schools (at least around here) do not hold kids back anymore. No matter what. Also notice that holding back a student in math is possibly net detrimental if the student is not also behind in English and Science. > but also about sharing the same teenager and adult-making experiences as other kids of your age, which is probably even more important that what's actually taught Again, the prepubescent/tween/teen division is much less granular/restrictive than the competency-by-age-X division.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Sounds a bit circular: when we test kids taught in single age groupings they have "narrowly" grouped grades. Therefore we should teach then in single age groupings because they have narrowly grouped grades. That doesn't really help us to know if the top achievers are being held back, for example. Perhaps we can speculate that lower achievers are being pulled up? Outside school you're almost always going to be in age diverse groups; I think a larger element of that in public schools would be better. IMO it helps to emphasise that children are there to make their own education and not simply to be part of an age defined peer group where it appears you're doing something just because of your age, not because of the educational opportunity.

taco_emoji 9y ago

Yeah. To my mind, the problem is that learning is very individualized (not even taking into account learning disabilities!), and yet mainstream U.S. pedagogical theories really only target the middle of the bell curve. What's needed -- at least for a huge chunk of students -- is something more like Montessori, where a learner who's struggling can receive individualized attention from a teacher or a peer, and where the learner has free access to tactile/visual/whatever aids which may be overkill for most other learners, AND -- perhaps most importantly -- where the natural human tendency to sit and focus for hours at a time on a single task is fostered and encouraged.

brlewis 9y ago
Montessori is awesome when done right. It's also easy to get wrong. Moving an entire educational system over to it is a formidable task.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

bb611 9y ago

There is plenty of research that holding kids back isn't actually an effective intervention, for example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022440506000550 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022440506... Retained students (the current terminology for "held back") are much more likely to stop attending school early, and on average do not see larger academic gains in their year retained than their equivalent peers who are not retained. The ONLY effective intervention is dramatically increased services for that student, delivered rapidly once the deficiency is detected. Many high performing charter school networks actually use this systematically, but only by overworking their teachers and generally burning them out within 5 years (retention rates at 5 years are frequently <10%, compared to 50% in the broader profession). Most teachers in mainstream district schools are covered by union contracts that limit their required working hours, so for the vast majority of schools even this isn't an option. Actually delivering these services in a sustainable manner is a financial burden American taxpayers appear largely unwilling to shoulder.