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Study finds Lumosity users show no improvements in cognitive performance
- moron4hire 9y agoI'm in the middle of planning a startup with a doctor who does research on therapy methods for traumatic brain injury. She frequently goes on rants about how much bullshit Lumosity is. So literal appeal to authority, but this particular authority was doing research at NIH for 17 years. I think she knows what she's doing.
- notheguyouthink 9y agoAre there any that aren't bullshit? I'm debating just setting up a spaced repetition app with my own custom knowledge base. At least that way I may not be getting higher brain function, but higher retention on memory items I care about.
- dmreedy 9y agoIf there are, they would be as difficult to recognize as germ theory to a 16th century doctor. We simply don't know enough yet about the mechanism.
- lbhnact 9y agoYeah, it's interesting. We have decades of research into standardized tests in the academic setting, and yet most people generally feel that these metrics have very limited utility. The notion that a startup has A: deep insights into the nature of cognitive function that others do not; and B: devised and tested a paradigm that sustainably improves it, was always a little shocking to see claimed.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- adrianN 9y agoYou don't need germ theory to notice that washing your hands before performing surgery improves outcomes.
- dmreedy 9y agoYes, but you do need to start moving towards germ theory to understand why washing your hands with charcoal instead of soap results in dead patients again. Of course scientific theory and scientific observation are bootstrapped off of each other in the course of a dialectic, but raw statistics only get you so far until deductive work is required for the next steps, and the cycle repeats. It's easy to spot and distill in hindsight what is less obvious in the act; and when you've got as many variables as the human experience does, and as many ethical questions when you experiment with them, the process becomes all the more vague.
- volkk 9y agocan you explain a bit about the charcoal/soap thing?
- dkarl 9y agoIt helps. It's much easier to notice something and take it seriously when it fits a theory you already have. Kind of like if your house is haunted, you might not notice that the sounds you hear at night fit that theory unless you already have it in mind. If you try to understand the noises in terms of your house settling, a fugitive living in your attic, or an animal breaking in at night to steal food, you won't notice, or won't take seriously, the patterns that would be obvious to someone who believes in ghosts.
- colorint 9y agoThis is, if you will, a very germ-theoretic perspective. Why would you notice, by eye, this correlation and not that one? More importantly, why would you collect these data rather than those? Scientific paradigms are "nefarious" because they control experimental design, so unparadigmatic data only come about by accident. And accidental results are often as not a flaw in the design or instrumentation, or else "noise."
- DiffEq 9y agoOr...one, or all of these: 1.Learn a Second Language 2. https://projecteuler.net/archives https://projecteuler.net/archives 3. http://rosalind.info/problems/list-view/ http://rosalind.info/problems/list-view/ If you are going to exercise your brain, you might as well get smarter and learn useful skills in the process.
- wccrawford 9y ago>If you are going to exercise your brain, you might as well get smarter and learn useful skills in the process. One might argue that that's the only way to actually exercise your brain.
- aklemm 9y agoWhy not just build stuff and solve real life problems with all your effort? That in itself is brain training AND productive at the same time.
- notheguyouthink 9y agoI mean, I do that. I build stuff (programs) in my off-time to solve problems I have. Eg, home automation, storage solutions, lots of cli utilities, etc. As strange as it sounds though, I think this has been making me more... dumb. Sure, I'm improving a subset of skills, especially computer science related with some of the more challenging projects, but I don't feel more intelligent. I forget things constantly, and frankly my knowledge of the world seems to just.. fade. I'm becoming so hyper focused that it's hurting me. That's why I mentioned spaced repetition. Not only do I want to improve my general brain functions, but I especially want to improve my recall of specific things. So I'm using a distributed database of mine as a way to keep a life journal. Anything I forget, I want to add to this knowledge journal, and try to ensure that I keep things in my mind.
- kiba 9y agoSpaced repetition absolutely works. I can literally see it in the statistics as clear as day. This is in addition to all the scientific evidences.
- copperx 9y agoIt absolutely works to improve your recall of the test items, but who knows if it improves your short or long term memory in general. That is, does it make it easier to recall things that are not part of the spaced repetition training?
- gwern 9y agoI haven't seen any studies examining a broader transfer effect from spaced repetition. It seems unlikely - spaced repetition is just a hack of a normal memory mechanism for prioritizing factual knowledge, so why would explicit use of it have any generalized benefits? You are always being exposed to and remembering things, after all.
- gargarplex 9y agoI'm conversational in Swedish. Started with duolingo.
- wccrawford 9y agoCongrats!
- Bartweiss 9y ago...basically no. Dual n-back was thought to be the only thing that worked, but even that now looks non-transferrable. (Gwern is great on this topic.) For young, healthy adults, I do not know of any brain exercise capable of directly raising IQ or its analogues. You might, maybe, be able to boost neurogenesis. Exercise is a decent candidate for that, and I don't know the situation with drugs there. But I don't know of games that do it. Realistically, you've got a few options. Your idea, spaced repetition of useful stuff, is great. Practicing memory tricks like mind palaces can improve your long-term memory on arbitrary facts. Picking up new topics dissimilar to the ones you know probably helps synthesis. Lots of things can maybe delay dementia. Meditation can improve focus and alertness. All of those are worthwhile. The top-line, raise basic IQ stuff? To my knowledge doesn't exist.
- chrisdone 9y agoI'll cite your Hacker News comment in my next paper.
- wannabe_miner 9y agoCan you link to one of your previous papers?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- rajadigopula 9y agoI am a lifetime member of lumosity for past few years. they used to have a beta-version game of "Dual-N-Back" which is the only one that might have some impact on brain. The irony is they removed it and keeping the useless ones; even keep modifying the UI of the same games again and again..
- gargarplex 9y agoDual N Back is a test of memory. Where is the evidence that practicing does anything besides decrease the accuracy of the test?
- hoodwink 9y agoHere is the most comprehensive review of the DnB experiments I have ever seen: https://www.gwern.net/DNB%20meta-analysis https://www.gwern.net/DNB%20meta-analysis
- ice109 9y ago>This is the website of Gwern Branwen, writer & independent researcher. I specialize in psychology, statistics, and technology forgive me if i don't take this meta-analysis seriously.
- Tenobrus 9y agoYou may not have read any of Gwern's articles before. For many people, the quality of articles they've written in the past is high enough to give them (Gwern) quite a positive reputation. At least I'm likely to click on basically anything written by Gwern. Critically if you actually read the article you can judge for yourself whether they know what they're talking about, as it's going to be both incredibly in depth and include disclosures of basically all caveats.
- it_learnses 9y agoactually dual n back skills are also non-transferable.
- b6 9y agoI have no idea what I'm talking about in this area, but the only brain games I've run into that I think might actually be helpful are the ones that are somewhat painful, e.g., BrainHQ. Definitely not fun. I start to sweat just thinking about some of the tasks in there.
- Bartweiss 9y agoProbably, no brain games at all boost IQ in healthy people. But some of them definitely help with memory, focus, etc, and I agree that those seem to be the hard ones. Dual n-back, the general benchmark for these things, is hard. It's exhausting like intricate coding or a tough math proof is exhausting. Certainly I'd be suspicious of anything claiming to do better than that with less mental effort.
- hmahncke 9y agoI was involved in designing most of the BrainHQ tasks. They're supposed to make you sweat.
- kranner 9y agoTitle should include "for healthy young adults" as in the study: "The researchers note limitations in the study, most importantly that they only looked at young, healthy people. Brain-training games may still prove useful for aging adults or people suffering from addiction or unhealthy behaviors, the researchers caution."
- SilasX 9y agoSo, kinda like: "Adding a two mile walk every morning was found to have no health benefits[1] [1] we only studied marathon runners"
- abtinf 9y agoThat is an incorrect analogy, because that claim would be about enhancing performance for peak performers. This study shows that there is no basis for the claim that you can enhance performance of normal/healthy performers. The researchers state the have insufficient evidence to determine the effect on low/unhealthy performers.
- djrogers 9y agoIt’s actually not a bad analogy - healthy young adults tend to be at their mental peak, certainly compared to when they are another 40-50 years down the road...
- Bartweiss 9y agoIt is a bad analogy, because the problem with studying marathon runners is that they've already used the fitness technique you want to study. They're runners because they walk and run a a lot. (And not necessarily because they're young! People run marathons in their 80s.) This study is about people who've never used Luminosity's techniques, but are in unrelated good (brain) health. There are a lot of known ways to mitigate or undo damage to the brain. Luminosity made a much bolder claim, that they could raise IQ in healthy, high-functioning adult brains. That's the Holy Grail of intelligence research, because no one has ever found a way to do it. It's like claiming a two mile walk each day will make literally anyone a much better runner. If you claim that, it's relevant that your offering is no good to marathoners.
- closed 9y agoSlightly off-topic, but the pushback against brain training owes a huge debt of thanks to Randy Engle (and others), for loudly questioning the methods and rational of the early "become smarter by the magic of dual n-back" research. Here's an article where he compares it to cold fusion: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/magazine/can-you-make-yourself-smarter.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/magazine/can-you-make-your...
- michaelcampbell 9y agoWas the claim not "doing n-back helps working memory"? Hardly "become smarter". Whether or not it works is worthy of discussion, but straw-man-ing a hyperbolic claim that wasn't made doesn't add to the discussion.
- closed 9y agoThat was half the claim. The full claim was that it improves fluid intelligence by improving working memory. The title of Jaeggi 2008 is "Improving fluid intelligence with training on working memory". http://www.pnas.org/content/105/19/6829.abstract http://www.pnas.org/content/105/19/6829.abstract
- codyb 9y agoOn the other hand, things like exercise and learning a new language have pretty conclusively shown benefits when it comes to reducing symptoms of dementia and brain function loss. [0] [1] If you'd like to improve your memory I suspect you'd be far better off studying the masters from Aristotle to Dominic O'Brien whose memory palace techniques seem incontrovertibly proven if you consider the techniques of the winners of the world memory championships. [2] [3] Finally, meditation is not causally linked to higher levels of grey matter but the research seems promising [4] (I tried to find decent links but being at work can't spend a significant portion of time on the post, these should be good starting points for anyone interested). [0] - http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/regular-exercise-changes-brain-improve-memory-thinking-skills-201404097110 http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/regular-exercise-changes-... [1] - https://www.livescience.com/46048-learning-new-language-brain.html https://www.livescience.com/46048-learning-new-language-brai... (sorry for the ads, and I think it autoplays a video :( ) [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_O%27Brien https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_O%27Brien [4] - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150205142951.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150205142951.h...
- overgard 9y agoI dont think abstract games like luminosity work, but I think its fatalistic to assume that your intelligence is fixed at a certain point. You can no doubt expand your intelligence (not just knowledge) by expanding your horizons, but learning is a difficult process.
- Bartweiss 9y agoThis... feels more like optimism than evidence. You can improve your performance on almost any single task, which is great news. Certain forms of learning (e.g. language) help defer dementia, exercise and meditation improve focus, memory tricks improve recall, learning diverse topics improves synthesis. But in terms of 'intelligence' in the clinical sense? Despite many people's efforts, I've never seen a single convincing success for healthy adults increasing their IQ. You can practice a specific test until it's inapplicable, but if you take one test, try to raise your IQ, and take another test, you won't see gains. Dual N-back is still the best thing known, and it doesn't work appreciably. Fortunately, the practical stuff - memory, focus, breadth of knowledge - is awfully helpful in real life. But I've never seen any evidence at all that intelligence in the IQ sense can be raised in adults.
- dwaltrip 9y agoAs you hint at in the last paragraph, IQ isn't the most important factor. What one can actually accomplish is what matters most. If one is able to improve the layer above raw IQ, the fundamental mental models that provide the base for interpreting, analyzing, and synthesizing everything that happens to them, that would provide immense benefits. It seems to me that is possible, to an extent. This is something I strive for, and I think I have made a bit of encouraging progress. Of course, evaluating this is... uh... not quite straight-forward, to say the least :)
- overgard 9y agoAdmittedly I have no evidence, but anecdotally when I started taking my health and diet seriously I feel like I gained about 10 IQ points just from fueling things better. Similarly, learning various mnemonics's and learning strategies has really helped my ability to learn more rapidly. You could argue that I'm simply capitalizing on my innate ability better -- and that would be true -- but the same argument would apply to gaining strength by training muscles. Nobody sees a muscular person thats ripped and thinks they just are lucky to be that way -- we recognize that there is both biology and effort in play, but for some reason people seem to think intelligence is pure biology. I cant prove my case, but im skeptical of that proposition. No doubt people have different ceilings for their potential, but I feel like most people who are viewed as smart arent just leaning on natural talent, rather they've cultivated skills that get the most out of what they have
- jmcgough 9y agoI spent three years of undergrad working on neurogenesis research - was actually able to show that voluntary exercise could help ameliorate memory deficits caused by a model of a neurodegenerative disease we'd induced in rats. A Luminosity recruiter contacted me after I left, and I asked for evidence that their research is actually helpful. They were very kind and passed along a number of studies that they'd done. I wasn't super impressed. Among other things, they were marketing their games to the general public, not the populations represented in their small studies. Quite honestly, aerobic exercise causes a huge upregulation of neurogenesis (and many other positive things), so people would be better off going for a light jog 2-3 times a week. It felt like they were taking advantage of families desperate to help a family member with dementia and willing to try anything.
- closed 9y agoInterestingly, one of my old colleagues has research that examines exercise / sport practice in humans as an alternative to the WM training approach. (You two might get along :). https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=_0GhDagAAAAJ https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=_0GhDagAAAAJ
- rayalez 9y agoCan you share some more recommendations or advice on how one can increase neuroplasticity/neurogenesis? Aside from the diet/exercise/socialization/meditation, what should people be aware of? Are there some effective supplements/nootropics, or some promising research to look into?
- _jtrig 9y agoAs far as your question about taking drugs/supplements to increase cognitive function, I can say with certainty any positive effect in the short term will eventually fall to long term dependencies and addictions which will, in turn actually decrease your resting cognitive function.
- magic_beans 9y agoCognitive improvement won't be found in drugs or supplements. The answer is in lifestyle change and recognizing the body and mind as one system.
- eagsalazar2 9y agoThis is honestly kind of depressing to me. I've never used an app like Luminosity regularly but I like the idea that I could train my brain and improve my focus and memory. Neuroplasticity right? Well actually no :(
- pkghost 9y agoNeuroplasticity yes indeed; Lumosity users are at least getting better at Lumosity games. Generalization no.
- eagsalazar2 9y agoIt seems surprising to me that people agree you can increase focus and memory through exercise but not IQ. I would think that by increasing focus and memory your comprehension scores, for example, would increase dramatically. I know if I'm distracted my comprehension is way lower. Is that now how IQ tests work?
- basseq 9y agoMy wife is a PhD in applied cognition (field of psychology), wrote her thesis on improvements in working memory and attention, and is working on an early-stage business around better brain coaching[1]. (More of a 1:1 model than a tech stack.) She has long stated that Lumosity is crap. For two three main reasons: 1. The "improvement" you see in playing Lumosity games is due to getting good at the game, not actually underlying improvements. 2. The games you do want to pursue need to to be strategic and challenge the mind. They need to be different, and involve complex scenarios. She likes Rise of Nations, by way of example. Flash minigames don't cut it (and neither do crosswords). 3. Brain games are 20% of a total set of activities that have an impact on brain health, the other 80% including physical exercise, diet, socialization, and lack of stress (mindfulness training helps here). Anyway, fascinating stuff, and glad Lumosity's "bad science" and false claims are coming to the fore. [1] http://brainevolved.com http://brainevolved.com
- seshagiric 9y agoSo in general is there any thing that does help improve cognitive performance?
- colorint 9y agoWell, you'll want to start by zeroing in on exactly what you mean by "cognitive performance." The abstract of the study the linked article is about has this to say: >Pre- and post-training, participants completed cognitive assessments and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) during performance of validated decision-making tasks: delay discounting (choices between smaller rewards now vs. larger rewards in the future) and risk sensitivity (choices between larger riskier rewards vs. smaller certain rewards). You could certainly imagine doing things to get better at these kinds of tasks---including practicing these tasks. Whether this gets at some kind of murky "cognitive performance" thing depends on how much you're into phrenology and dualism. Since it seems like you want a scientific answer to this question, you'll always have to confront the realities of experimental design, and because of that, you'll have to nail down exactly what it is you're after. And "cognitive performance" isn't nearly specific enough.
- l4xecz 9y agocmd+f luminosity results in nearly as many occurrences as lumosity. That name is cursed. Probably doesn't help that the correct name gets auto-corrected to the incorrect.
- manbearpigg 9y agoIf luminosity challenges have any consistency at all, then you would think that users must perform better on luminosity challenged themselves.