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USA Military Indistrial Complex strikes again.

by archvile 9y ago

rublev 9y ago
Why is this being downvoted with explanation?
- dasil003 9y ago
  I didn't downvote, but my guess would be because ISIS is responsible for this escalation, not the US.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    ISIL (or something like it; the name/identity couldn't be predicted) as a substantial force with territory, was a foreseeable consequences of the US invasion of Iraq, the inadequate allotment of troops for occupation compared to pre-invasion expert-identified requirements, and bungling of details of the occupation like de-Baathification, particularly the wholesale and disorderly dismissal of security services. The US (and specific US policy makers) are directly responsible for that.
    - Simon_says 9y ago
      I want to believe that this result was foreseeable. I want to believe that some people at least are wise enough to see consequences of actions. Can you point to some piece of writing explaining this prior to or contemporaneous with the US invasion?
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        Not sure I'll be able to find the detailed stuff I saw at the time, but here's a reference to General Shinseki's estimate of the needed troops and the (manifestly false; Iraq had a long history of ethnic and sectarian militia conflict) administration response. http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-iraq/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-ira...
      - laithshadeed 9y ago
        I suggest to you read "I Was Told to Come Alone: My Journey Behind the Lines of Jihad", Specially chapter 3 & 4. It has all the details you want. https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627798978 https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627...
        Simon_says 9y ago
        I'll try to take a look at this later, but Amazon says the publish date is 2017. I'm really looking for something that prognosticates.
      - acdha 9y ago
        James Fallows was one of the better known journalists and he got a lot of attention: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed-with-caution/303079/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fifty-first-state/302612/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fif... There's a LONG list of people referenced here, including a number of military, intelligence, and foreign policy experts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opposition_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opp... A key part to understanding this is remembering that blaming it on intelligence failures was the defense which the George W. Bush administration settled on to replace their earlier failed excuses. Before the invasion started, the intelligence claims used to justify it had fallen apart and the U.K. & U.S. Senate reports noted that significant pressure was placed by the White House on the intelligence agencies to justify what they were already planning to do. (The former Treasury Secretary noted that is was planned starting before 9/11: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/ http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/) The Downing Street memo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo) had a similar conclusion, quoting the Foreign Minister: > Bush wanted to remove Saddam Hussein, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy The pattern through all of this was the White House choosing to ignore, override, or replace professional civil servants with political appointees who would produce the desired results. When the CIA and other analysts would not support those claims, Donald Rumsfeld setup a sham intelligence unit which did produce the claims they later used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans). This happened with the planning for the invasion and occupation. When the military sensibly pointed out that they needed to plan for the occupation: > In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said "he would fire the next person" who talked about the need for a post-war plan. > > Rumsfeld did replace Gen. Eric Shinseki, the Army chief of staff in 2003, after Shinseki told Congress that hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to secure post-war Iraq. http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_central-command-defense-secretary-donald-rumsfeld-iraq http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_... When the State Department accurately predicted that the invasion and occupation would not be a cake-walk, it was largely ignored. As one example, that was the conclusion in 2003 — well before the full scope of the botch had become clear: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-planning-state-dept-study-foresaw-trouble-now-plaguing-iraq.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-pl...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - kukabynd 9y ago
    And who’s responsible for ISIS?
    - afarrell 9y ago
      Many, but I'd like to add Mark Sykes and François Georges-Picot to the list of names we're considering.
    - blubber 9y ago
      Please give me name and phone number of the one person that is responsible. Thank you. I'll call him/her and tell him/her that he/she did all that.
      - kukabynd 9y ago
        You’re overdoing it a tad, but let’s just imagine you had a number of that “evil person”. Why would you call him/her and tell he/she did all that? Wouldn’t it be pointless? Seriously though, I’m not saying I have all the answers but let me ask a simple question. Why would the country with the biggest military industrial complex in the world be involved in the regions all over the world, especially on the other half of the planet? You don’t see soldiers from Bashkiria hanging out in your yard.
        nyolfen 9y ago
        so why are you blaming the US specifically and not any of the disparate partisan groups that directly built ISIS? the islamist militants from MENA, the saudis funding wahhabist madrassas abroad, the gulf monarchies giving arms and funding, the former iraqi ba'athists that make up its officer corps... and instead you choose an entity directly fighting ISIS? why is that? almost as if you have ideological blinders on...
        manicdee 9y ago
        The US deliberately caused a power vacuum and did nothing to fill it. If I drop an egg on the ground, can I blame the egg for cracking? If I rest an egg on an uneven bench top, and it subsequently rolls off the bench and splatters on the floor, who is to blame: the egg, gravity, or the floor? If I give a suicidal person a gun when the rest of the community has been actively preventing that person getting a gun, and openly told me not to give the person a gun, who is most directly to blame for them killing themselves using that gun? If I leave food on the kitchen bench after Mum told me to put it away, who is to blame for the ant infestation in the kitchen: the ants, my Mum or the pest eradicator? It doesn't matter that we came back and tried cleaning up the mess later.

USA Military Indistrial Complex strikes again.

rublev 9y ago

Why is this being downvoted with explanation?

dasil003 9y ago
I didn't downvote, but my guess would be because ISIS is responsible for this escalation, not the US.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  ISIL (or something like it; the name/identity couldn't be predicted) as a substantial force with territory, was a foreseeable consequences of the US invasion of Iraq, the inadequate allotment of troops for occupation compared to pre-invasion expert-identified requirements, and bungling of details of the occupation like de-Baathification, particularly the wholesale and disorderly dismissal of security services. The US (and specific US policy makers) are directly responsible for that.
  - Simon_says 9y ago
    I want to believe that this result was foreseeable. I want to believe that some people at least are wise enough to see consequences of actions. Can you point to some piece of writing explaining this prior to or contemporaneous with the US invasion?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      Not sure I'll be able to find the detailed stuff I saw at the time, but here's a reference to General Shinseki's estimate of the needed troops and the (manifestly false; Iraq had a long history of ethnic and sectarian militia conflict) administration response. http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-iraq/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-ira...
    - laithshadeed 9y ago
      I suggest to you read "I Was Told to Come Alone: My Journey Behind the Lines of Jihad", Specially chapter 3 & 4. It has all the details you want. https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627798978 https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627...
      - Simon_says 9y ago
        I'll try to take a look at this later, but Amazon says the publish date is 2017. I'm really looking for something that prognosticates.
    - acdha 9y ago
      James Fallows was one of the better known journalists and he got a lot of attention: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed-with-caution/303079/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fifty-first-state/302612/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fif... There's a LONG list of people referenced here, including a number of military, intelligence, and foreign policy experts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opposition_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opp... A key part to understanding this is remembering that blaming it on intelligence failures was the defense which the George W. Bush administration settled on to replace their earlier failed excuses. Before the invasion started, the intelligence claims used to justify it had fallen apart and the U.K. & U.S. Senate reports noted that significant pressure was placed by the White House on the intelligence agencies to justify what they were already planning to do. (The former Treasury Secretary noted that is was planned starting before 9/11: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/ http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/) The Downing Street memo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo) had a similar conclusion, quoting the Foreign Minister: > Bush wanted to remove Saddam Hussein, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy The pattern through all of this was the White House choosing to ignore, override, or replace professional civil servants with political appointees who would produce the desired results. When the CIA and other analysts would not support those claims, Donald Rumsfeld setup a sham intelligence unit which did produce the claims they later used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans). This happened with the planning for the invasion and occupation. When the military sensibly pointed out that they needed to plan for the occupation: > In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said "he would fire the next person" who talked about the need for a post-war plan. > > Rumsfeld did replace Gen. Eric Shinseki, the Army chief of staff in 2003, after Shinseki told Congress that hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to secure post-war Iraq. http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_central-command-defense-secretary-donald-rumsfeld-iraq http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_... When the State Department accurately predicted that the invasion and occupation would not be a cake-walk, it was largely ignored. As one example, that was the conclusion in 2003 — well before the full scope of the botch had become clear: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-planning-state-dept-study-foresaw-trouble-now-plaguing-iraq.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-pl...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kukabynd 9y ago
  And who’s responsible for ISIS?
  - afarrell 9y ago
    Many, but I'd like to add Mark Sykes and François Georges-Picot to the list of names we're considering.
  - blubber 9y ago
    Please give me name and phone number of the one person that is responsible. Thank you. I'll call him/her and tell him/her that he/she did all that.
    - kukabynd 9y ago
      You’re overdoing it a tad, but let’s just imagine you had a number of that “evil person”. Why would you call him/her and tell he/she did all that? Wouldn’t it be pointless? Seriously though, I’m not saying I have all the answers but let me ask a simple question. Why would the country with the biggest military industrial complex in the world be involved in the regions all over the world, especially on the other half of the planet? You don’t see soldiers from Bashkiria hanging out in your yard.
      - nyolfen 9y ago
        so why are you blaming the US specifically and not any of the disparate partisan groups that directly built ISIS? the islamist militants from MENA, the saudis funding wahhabist madrassas abroad, the gulf monarchies giving arms and funding, the former iraqi ba'athists that make up its officer corps... and instead you choose an entity directly fighting ISIS? why is that? almost as if you have ideological blinders on...
        manicdee 9y ago
        The US deliberately caused a power vacuum and did nothing to fill it. If I drop an egg on the ground, can I blame the egg for cracking? If I rest an egg on an uneven bench top, and it subsequently rolls off the bench and splatters on the floor, who is to blame: the egg, gravity, or the floor? If I give a suicidal person a gun when the rest of the community has been actively preventing that person getting a gun, and openly told me not to give the person a gun, who is most directly to blame for them killing themselves using that gun? If I leave food on the kitchen bench after Mum told me to put it away, who is to blame for the ant infestation in the kitchen: the ants, my Mum or the pest eradicator? It doesn't matter that we came back and tried cleaning up the mess later.