7 ms·

The recent drone footage from Mosul is some of the most mind blowing, surreal stuff imaginable. God help anyone trapped in that city. https://www.youtube.com/w

The recent drone footage from Mosul is some of the most mind blowing, surreal stuff imaginable. God help anyone trapped in that city. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW_F2ntQOcQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW_F2ntQOcQ

AndrewKemendo 9y ago
I was there in 2010 and it was pretty peaceful. Now it's a total disaster, along with most of Iraq.
- archvile 9y ago
  USA Military Indistrial Complex strikes again.
  - rublev 9y ago
    Why is this being downvoted with explanation?
    - dasil003 9y ago
      I didn't downvote, but my guess would be because ISIS is responsible for this escalation, not the US.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        ISIL (or something like it; the name/identity couldn't be predicted) as a substantial force with territory, was a foreseeable consequences of the US invasion of Iraq, the inadequate allotment of troops for occupation compared to pre-invasion expert-identified requirements, and bungling of details of the occupation like de-Baathification, particularly the wholesale and disorderly dismissal of security services. The US (and specific US policy makers) are directly responsible for that.
        Simon_says 9y ago
        I want to believe that this result was foreseeable. I want to believe that some people at least are wise enough to see consequences of actions. Can you point to some piece of writing explaining this prior to or contemporaneous with the US invasion?
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        Not sure I'll be able to find the detailed stuff I saw at the time, but here's a reference to General Shinseki's estimate of the needed troops and the (manifestly false; Iraq had a long history of ethnic and sectarian militia conflict) administration response. http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-iraq/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-ira...
        laithshadeed 9y ago
        I suggest to you read "I Was Told to Come Alone: My Journey Behind the Lines of Jihad", Specially chapter 3 & 4. It has all the details you want. https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627798978 https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627...
        Simon_says 9y ago
        I'll try to take a look at this later, but Amazon says the publish date is 2017. I'm really looking for something that prognosticates.
        acdha 9y ago
        James Fallows was one of the better known journalists and he got a lot of attention: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed-with-caution/303079/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fifty-first-state/302612/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fif... There's a LONG list of people referenced here, including a number of military, intelligence, and foreign policy experts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opposition_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opp... A key part to understanding this is remembering that blaming it on intelligence failures was the defense which the George W. Bush administration settled on to replace their earlier failed excuses. Before the invasion started, the intelligence claims used to justify it had fallen apart and the U.K. & U.S. Senate reports noted that significant pressure was placed by the White House on the intelligence agencies to justify what they were already planning to do. (The former Treasury Secretary noted that is was planned starting before 9/11: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/ http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/) The Downing Street memo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo) had a similar conclusion, quoting the Foreign Minister: > Bush wanted to remove Saddam Hussein, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy The pattern through all of this was the White House choosing to ignore, override, or replace professional civil servants with political appointees who would produce the desired results. When the CIA and other analysts would not support those claims, Donald Rumsfeld setup a sham intelligence unit which did produce the claims they later used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans). This happened with the planning for the invasion and occupation. When the military sensibly pointed out that they needed to plan for the occupation: > In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said "he would fire the next person" who talked about the need for a post-war plan. > > Rumsfeld did replace Gen. Eric Shinseki, the Army chief of staff in 2003, after Shinseki told Congress that hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to secure post-war Iraq. http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_central-command-defense-secretary-donald-rumsfeld-iraq http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_... When the State Department accurately predicted that the invasion and occupation would not be a cake-walk, it was largely ignored. As one example, that was the conclusion in 2003 — well before the full scope of the botch had become clear: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-planning-state-dept-study-foresaw-trouble-now-plaguing-iraq.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-pl...
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - kukabynd 9y ago
        And who’s responsible for ISIS?
        afarrell 9y ago
        Many, but I'd like to add Mark Sykes and François Georges-Picot to the list of names we're considering.
        blubber 9y ago
        Please give me name and phone number of the one person that is responsible. Thank you. I'll call him/her and tell him/her that he/she did all that.
        kukabynd 9y ago
        You’re overdoing it a tad, but let’s just imagine you had a number of that “evil person”. Why would you call him/her and tell he/she did all that? Wouldn’t it be pointless? Seriously though, I’m not saying I have all the answers but let me ask a simple question. Why would the country with the biggest military industrial complex in the world be involved in the regions all over the world, especially on the other half of the planet? You don’t see soldiers from Bashkiria hanging out in your yard.
        nyolfen 9y ago
        so why are you blaming the US specifically and not any of the disparate partisan groups that directly built ISIS? the islamist militants from MENA, the saudis funding wahhabist madrassas abroad, the gulf monarchies giving arms and funding, the former iraqi ba'athists that make up its officer corps... and instead you choose an entity directly fighting ISIS? why is that? almost as if you have ideological blinders on...
        manicdee 9y ago
        The US deliberately caused a power vacuum and did nothing to fill it. If I drop an egg on the ground, can I blame the egg for cracking? If I rest an egg on an uneven bench top, and it subsequently rolls off the bench and splatters on the floor, who is to blame: the egg, gravity, or the floor? If I give a suicidal person a gun when the rest of the community has been actively preventing that person getting a gun, and openly told me not to give the person a gun, who is most directly to blame for them killing themselves using that gun? If I leave food on the kitchen bench after Mum told me to put it away, who is to blame for the ant infestation in the kitchen: the ants, my Mum or the pest eradicator? It doesn't matter that we came back and tried cleaning up the mess later.
- rdl 9y ago
  I was there in 2005-2007 and it was peaceful at times, punctuated with violence. I can't imagine what it would be like to have lived there from Saddam days through today without being able to leave -- at least 5 big waves of violence.
nerdponx 9y ago
I've been watching live combat footage on the Internet. War is an astounding phenomenon.
- rattray 9y ago
  where is that available?
  - nerdponx 9y ago
    YouTube, for a start.
the_cat_kittles 9y ago
anti refugee sentiment is so unconscionable, what the hell world do we live in
- stinos 9y ago
  Not sure why you got some downvotes. Maybe the wording? But still.. I share your sentiments regarding other's anti-refugee sentiments: seeing things like this video, and having met and talked to actual refugees (seriously, I wonder how many of the antis actually did that? Or would even want to?) and having heard what they went through, it is painful to see others shouting refugees aren't welcome (or worse). Ok I get it, it is not always practical and sometimes even problematic to allow thousands in your country, and yes they have a different culture, and yes some of them might not be on the run for actual war. But my feeling of compassion for their problems, which I as a 'standard' western can only begin to feel related to (e.g. how many of use even ever came close to an actual proper bomb, or the constant fear for it?), is still too big to jump on that bandwagon.
  - the_cat_kittles 9y ago
    yes. sometimes i wonder... is the magnitude of the suffering that refugees are trying to escape so great that its just lost on people? its impossible to relate to for some people like me. the fact that i was shaken by watching these war videos is evidence of this, perhaps. so maybe some of us just dont empathize at all because the truth is too painful. then its easier to say there will be lots of problems so lets just not bother. i guess its incumbent on all of us to remind each other what i think the truth is.
    - reitanqild 9y ago
      I hope I'm not to special but I'm in the position where I'll happily do something for those people (e.g. pay more taxes so we can help them, or give my xbox to the local refugee center - actually I did that : - ) I still think we should close the borders and focus on helping the neighbouring countries handle the situation. Why would a person who care enough to - want to pay more to help refugees and - want to help the refugees who are already here want to do that? In my case simply because todays solution is very suboptimal: It creates dangerous situations for refugees (paying huge amounts to criminals to be smuggled across Europe, crossing the Mediterranean in inflatable boats etc etc.) It creates problems here as well. Lets not understate that either. And last but perhaps not least: we are letting down the people who are hit hardest by spending the money on those who have the resources to cross Europe already instead of helping neighbouring countries.
pinaceae 9y ago
The one upside is that all those suicide attacks slowly wipe out all young men mentally unstable enough to do this. Will be interesting to see if long term certain psychic diseases (bi-polar, depression, etc.) get less prevalent on the Arabic peninsula.
- aagha 9y ago
  You're (likely incorrectly) assuming that the rate of extreme radicalization is lower than the rate of annual suicide attacks.

AndrewKemendo 9y ago

I was there in 2010 and it was pretty peaceful. Now it's a total disaster, along with most of Iraq.

archvile 9y ago
USA Military Indistrial Complex strikes again.
- rublev 9y ago
  Why is this being downvoted with explanation?
  - dasil003 9y ago
    I didn't downvote, but my guess would be because ISIS is responsible for this escalation, not the US.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      ISIL (or something like it; the name/identity couldn't be predicted) as a substantial force with territory, was a foreseeable consequences of the US invasion of Iraq, the inadequate allotment of troops for occupation compared to pre-invasion expert-identified requirements, and bungling of details of the occupation like de-Baathification, particularly the wholesale and disorderly dismissal of security services. The US (and specific US policy makers) are directly responsible for that.
      - Simon_says 9y ago
        I want to believe that this result was foreseeable. I want to believe that some people at least are wise enough to see consequences of actions. Can you point to some piece of writing explaining this prior to or contemporaneous with the US invasion?
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        Not sure I'll be able to find the detailed stuff I saw at the time, but here's a reference to General Shinseki's estimate of the needed troops and the (manifestly false; Iraq had a long history of ethnic and sectarian militia conflict) administration response. http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-iraq/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-ira...
        laithshadeed 9y ago
        I suggest to you read "I Was Told to Come Alone: My Journey Behind the Lines of Jihad", Specially chapter 3 & 4. It has all the details you want. https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627798978 https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627...
        Simon_says 9y ago
        I'll try to take a look at this later, but Amazon says the publish date is 2017. I'm really looking for something that prognosticates.
        acdha 9y ago
        James Fallows was one of the better known journalists and he got a lot of attention: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed-with-caution/303079/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fifty-first-state/302612/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fif... There's a LONG list of people referenced here, including a number of military, intelligence, and foreign policy experts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opposition_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opp... A key part to understanding this is remembering that blaming it on intelligence failures was the defense which the George W. Bush administration settled on to replace their earlier failed excuses. Before the invasion started, the intelligence claims used to justify it had fallen apart and the U.K. & U.S. Senate reports noted that significant pressure was placed by the White House on the intelligence agencies to justify what they were already planning to do. (The former Treasury Secretary noted that is was planned starting before 9/11: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/ http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/) The Downing Street memo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo) had a similar conclusion, quoting the Foreign Minister: > Bush wanted to remove Saddam Hussein, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy The pattern through all of this was the White House choosing to ignore, override, or replace professional civil servants with political appointees who would produce the desired results. When the CIA and other analysts would not support those claims, Donald Rumsfeld setup a sham intelligence unit which did produce the claims they later used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans). This happened with the planning for the invasion and occupation. When the military sensibly pointed out that they needed to plan for the occupation: > In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said "he would fire the next person" who talked about the need for a post-war plan. > > Rumsfeld did replace Gen. Eric Shinseki, the Army chief of staff in 2003, after Shinseki told Congress that hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to secure post-war Iraq. http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_central-command-defense-secretary-donald-rumsfeld-iraq http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_... When the State Department accurately predicted that the invasion and occupation would not be a cake-walk, it was largely ignored. As one example, that was the conclusion in 2003 — well before the full scope of the botch had become clear: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-planning-state-dept-study-foresaw-trouble-now-plaguing-iraq.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-pl...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - kukabynd 9y ago
      And who’s responsible for ISIS?
      - afarrell 9y ago
        Many, but I'd like to add Mark Sykes and François Georges-Picot to the list of names we're considering.
      - blubber 9y ago
        Please give me name and phone number of the one person that is responsible. Thank you. I'll call him/her and tell him/her that he/she did all that.
        kukabynd 9y ago
        You’re overdoing it a tad, but let’s just imagine you had a number of that “evil person”. Why would you call him/her and tell he/she did all that? Wouldn’t it be pointless? Seriously though, I’m not saying I have all the answers but let me ask a simple question. Why would the country with the biggest military industrial complex in the world be involved in the regions all over the world, especially on the other half of the planet? You don’t see soldiers from Bashkiria hanging out in your yard.
        nyolfen 9y ago
        so why are you blaming the US specifically and not any of the disparate partisan groups that directly built ISIS? the islamist militants from MENA, the saudis funding wahhabist madrassas abroad, the gulf monarchies giving arms and funding, the former iraqi ba'athists that make up its officer corps... and instead you choose an entity directly fighting ISIS? why is that? almost as if you have ideological blinders on...
        manicdee 9y ago
        The US deliberately caused a power vacuum and did nothing to fill it. If I drop an egg on the ground, can I blame the egg for cracking? If I rest an egg on an uneven bench top, and it subsequently rolls off the bench and splatters on the floor, who is to blame: the egg, gravity, or the floor? If I give a suicidal person a gun when the rest of the community has been actively preventing that person getting a gun, and openly told me not to give the person a gun, who is most directly to blame for them killing themselves using that gun? If I leave food on the kitchen bench after Mum told me to put it away, who is to blame for the ant infestation in the kitchen: the ants, my Mum or the pest eradicator? It doesn't matter that we came back and tried cleaning up the mess later.
rdl 9y ago
I was there in 2005-2007 and it was peaceful at times, punctuated with violence. I can't imagine what it would be like to have lived there from Saddam days through today without being able to leave -- at least 5 big waves of violence.

nerdponx 9y ago

I've been watching live combat footage on the Internet. War is an astounding phenomenon.

rattray 9y ago
where is that available?
- nerdponx 9y ago
  YouTube, for a start.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago

anti refugee sentiment is so unconscionable, what the hell world do we live in

stinos 9y ago
Not sure why you got some downvotes. Maybe the wording? But still.. I share your sentiments regarding other's anti-refugee sentiments: seeing things like this video, and having met and talked to actual refugees (seriously, I wonder how many of the antis actually did that? Or would even want to?) and having heard what they went through, it is painful to see others shouting refugees aren't welcome (or worse). Ok I get it, it is not always practical and sometimes even problematic to allow thousands in your country, and yes they have a different culture, and yes some of them might not be on the run for actual war. But my feeling of compassion for their problems, which I as a 'standard' western can only begin to feel related to (e.g. how many of use even ever came close to an actual proper bomb, or the constant fear for it?), is still too big to jump on that bandwagon.
- the_cat_kittles 9y ago
  yes. sometimes i wonder... is the magnitude of the suffering that refugees are trying to escape so great that its just lost on people? its impossible to relate to for some people like me. the fact that i was shaken by watching these war videos is evidence of this, perhaps. so maybe some of us just dont empathize at all because the truth is too painful. then its easier to say there will be lots of problems so lets just not bother. i guess its incumbent on all of us to remind each other what i think the truth is.
  - reitanqild 9y ago
    I hope I'm not to special but I'm in the position where I'll happily do something for those people (e.g. pay more taxes so we can help them, or give my xbox to the local refugee center - actually I did that : - ) I still think we should close the borders and focus on helping the neighbouring countries handle the situation. Why would a person who care enough to - want to pay more to help refugees and - want to help the refugees who are already here want to do that? In my case simply because todays solution is very suboptimal: It creates dangerous situations for refugees (paying huge amounts to criminals to be smuggled across Europe, crossing the Mediterranean in inflatable boats etc etc.) It creates problems here as well. Lets not understate that either. And last but perhaps not least: we are letting down the people who are hit hardest by spending the money on those who have the resources to cross Europe already instead of helping neighbouring countries.

pinaceae 9y ago

The one upside is that all those suicide attacks slowly wipe out all young men mentally unstable enough to do this. Will be interesting to see if long term certain psychic diseases (bi-polar, depression, etc.) get less prevalent on the Arabic peninsula.

aagha 9y ago
You're (likely incorrectly) assuming that the rate of extreme radicalization is lower than the rate of annual suicide attacks.