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Few weeks ago I decided to spend a weekend to try to understand Ethereum. I found the whitepaper to be pretty instructive (it even helped me cement my understan

Few weeks ago I decided to spend a weekend to try to understand Ethereum. I found the whitepaper to be pretty instructive (it even helped me cement my understanding of bitcoin). Here is an annotated version of the whitepaper by vitalik: http://fermatslibrary.com/s/ethereum-a-next-generation-smart-contract-and-decentralized-application-platform http://fermatslibrary.com/s/ethereum-a-next-generation-smart...

revelation 9y ago
This is drivel. Protocols and decentralized applications around decentralized file storage, decentralized computation and decentralized prediction markets, among dozens of other such concepts, have the potential to substantially increase the efficiency of the computational industry, and provide a massive boost to other peer-to-peer protocols by adding for the first time an economic layer
- DennisP 9y ago
  File storage: Swarm, and several other file storage protocols getting integrated with Ethereum. Computation: pretty much the whole point of the Ethereum VM, plus there are a couple projects that put proofs on the blockchain of larger computations than the blockchain can handle. Prediction markets: Gnosis and Augur Efficiency: at least developer efficiency, in my experience Economic layer: because you have reliable currencies on the network, both ETH and roll-your-own. It might sound like buzzwords but at this point it's all real code.
  - Retra 9y ago
    Does that real code actually increase computational efficiency, or does only merely have the potential to do so? Real code that doesn't provide the stated advantages doesn't mean much, right?
    - okabat 9y ago
      I'm in to prediction markets, but both Augur and Gnosis look like vaporware. Almost no volume on Augur and many poorly defined events to wager on (cost of having user generated content). Gnosis just looks like a fancy landing page and attempt to fundraise via ICO. I have long-term hopes that decentralized currencies let us build some interesting products, but there's massive volatility against fiat when holding crypto, which makes it hard most people to want to use these auxiliary services
    - DennisP 9y ago
      It'd definitely not computational efficiency. Vitalik has repeatedly pointed out that the total computation available on this network of thousands of computers is less than that of a first-generation smartphone. But it doesn't say "computational efficiency." It's talking about efficiency of the industry, which is a completely different thing. As a developer, I have various ideas for startups that would handle money. The easiest way to implement them is to build on Ethereum.
- nerdponx 9y ago
  It's not necessarily drivel, it's just an unfounded assertion.
- thatswrong0 9y ago
  It's a bit silly to dismiss the whole thing because the cofounder is trying a little too hard to sell the technology.. it certainly doesn't mean the technological aspect of the paper is "drivel"
  - revelation 9y ago
    This is Sokal level writing. If this was a random person trying his hand at a writing class, whatever, but this is the guy writing the code behind your crypto coin.
    - Breefield 9y ago
      I wasn't aware of Sokal. I'm going to include this concept on the "scammer" page.
    - gfody 9y ago
      Literally everything I read about Ethereum that's written by Vitalik stinks of something I haven't been able to put my finger on. "Sokal-ish" nails it exactly. The writing is never straight-forward, and always appeals to mainstream idealogical preconceptions. It's liberally salted with economical-jibberish-nonsense that sounds good as well. I believe blockchain technology is important and I think Ethereum is a strong contribution in its own right. But the more I read of Vitalik's Sokal-style writing the more I wish he would stop and let others handle it because he is making it sound like he's going to scam the shit out of everybody.
      - zodiac 9y ago
        Really? I think Vitalik writes with a lot more precision than most in the space. E.g. https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/16/secret-sharing-erasure-coding-guide-aspiring-dropbox-decentralizer/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/16/secret-sharing-erasure-...
      - BaronSamedi 9y ago
        When reading anything about Ethereum, the problem I've encountered is that the authors describe the supposed potential of the technology but never practical use cases. They never talk about successful, working applications. The question for Ethereum, like any technology, is what real-world problem is it uniquely suited to solve? Personally, I don't think Ethereum will ever live up to the hype surrounding it because its founders have promised more than it can deliver.
- ChrisClark 9y ago
  At least each example in that sentence there already has one or more teams implementing it and actual working code you can run on top of Ethereum.
joe_the_user 9y ago
Interesting; The document mentions creating a crop-insurance application that would depend on a weather feed. The problem is if the weather feed isn't something that's uniformly secureable the result could be bad given that the insurance application would take action automatically and no appeal to any higher authority concerning the fraud would be possible - without a "fork" as happened earlier. Hack an insecure feed, an insecure site or whatever and viola, free money. And this seems like a problem any interface with the "real world" would face. The idea of automatically occurring, no-appeal financial transactions sounds but I would claim it's always going to be problematic - only a fool or a crook would put their money in this kind of system and the crook only puts in enough money to remove the money of the fool. The ideal of say, money, is it belongs to you, where you is a broad but understandable concept. Something that belong to "whoever has X, Y, Z pieces of information about you" may sound great until someone beside you gets that information and there is no recourse. Indeed, the person who had the information "did nothing wrong" if the account really, really did belong to "whoever has this information" rather than belonging to you.
- RexetBlell 9y ago
  The weather feed can provided by several oracles, and the contract can take the median value. You could program whatever logic you want into the insurance. For example, some kind of dispute resolution system that appeals to a higher authority. How do insurance companies deal with this problem today? Why do you trust the insurance company not to lie and say that the weather was fine? Whatever that mechanism is, it can be programmed into a smart contract.
  - rspeer 9y ago
    > How do insurance companies deal with this problem today? The legal system. It can put people in jail for fraud if necessary. Do you really want "smart" "contracts" to have the power to put people in jail? Really?
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      A smart contract wouldn't put someone in jail(how often does that directly result from a contract dispute anyway?)...a lawsuit would he how someone resolves the issue if that remedy is available and necessary

revelation 9y ago

This is drivel. Protocols and decentralized applications around decentralized file storage, decentralized computation and decentralized prediction markets, among dozens of other such concepts, have the potential to substantially increase the efficiency of the computational industry, and provide a massive boost to other peer-to-peer protocols by adding for the first time an economic layer

DennisP 9y ago
File storage: Swarm, and several other file storage protocols getting integrated with Ethereum. Computation: pretty much the whole point of the Ethereum VM, plus there are a couple projects that put proofs on the blockchain of larger computations than the blockchain can handle. Prediction markets: Gnosis and Augur Efficiency: at least developer efficiency, in my experience Economic layer: because you have reliable currencies on the network, both ETH and roll-your-own. It might sound like buzzwords but at this point it's all real code.
- Retra 9y ago
  Does that real code actually increase computational efficiency, or does only merely have the potential to do so? Real code that doesn't provide the stated advantages doesn't mean much, right?
  - okabat 9y ago
    I'm in to prediction markets, but both Augur and Gnosis look like vaporware. Almost no volume on Augur and many poorly defined events to wager on (cost of having user generated content). Gnosis just looks like a fancy landing page and attempt to fundraise via ICO. I have long-term hopes that decentralized currencies let us build some interesting products, but there's massive volatility against fiat when holding crypto, which makes it hard most people to want to use these auxiliary services
  - DennisP 9y ago
    It'd definitely not computational efficiency. Vitalik has repeatedly pointed out that the total computation available on this network of thousands of computers is less than that of a first-generation smartphone. But it doesn't say "computational efficiency." It's talking about efficiency of the industry, which is a completely different thing. As a developer, I have various ideas for startups that would handle money. The easiest way to implement them is to build on Ethereum.
nerdponx 9y ago
It's not necessarily drivel, it's just an unfounded assertion.
thatswrong0 9y ago
It's a bit silly to dismiss the whole thing because the cofounder is trying a little too hard to sell the technology.. it certainly doesn't mean the technological aspect of the paper is "drivel"
- revelation 9y ago
  This is Sokal level writing. If this was a random person trying his hand at a writing class, whatever, but this is the guy writing the code behind your crypto coin.
  - Breefield 9y ago
    I wasn't aware of Sokal. I'm going to include this concept on the "scammer" page.
  - gfody 9y ago
    Literally everything I read about Ethereum that's written by Vitalik stinks of something I haven't been able to put my finger on. "Sokal-ish" nails it exactly. The writing is never straight-forward, and always appeals to mainstream idealogical preconceptions. It's liberally salted with economical-jibberish-nonsense that sounds good as well. I believe blockchain technology is important and I think Ethereum is a strong contribution in its own right. But the more I read of Vitalik's Sokal-style writing the more I wish he would stop and let others handle it because he is making it sound like he's going to scam the shit out of everybody.
    - zodiac 9y ago
      Really? I think Vitalik writes with a lot more precision than most in the space. E.g. https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/16/secret-sharing-erasure-coding-guide-aspiring-dropbox-decentralizer/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/16/secret-sharing-erasure-...
    - BaronSamedi 9y ago
      When reading anything about Ethereum, the problem I've encountered is that the authors describe the supposed potential of the technology but never practical use cases. They never talk about successful, working applications. The question for Ethereum, like any technology, is what real-world problem is it uniquely suited to solve? Personally, I don't think Ethereum will ever live up to the hype surrounding it because its founders have promised more than it can deliver.
ChrisClark 9y ago
At least each example in that sentence there already has one or more teams implementing it and actual working code you can run on top of Ethereum.

joe_the_user 9y ago

Interesting; The document mentions creating a crop-insurance application that would depend on a weather feed. The problem is if the weather feed isn't something that's uniformly secureable the result could be bad given that the insurance application would take action automatically and no appeal to any higher authority concerning the fraud would be possible - without a "fork" as happened earlier. Hack an insecure feed, an insecure site or whatever and viola, free money. And this seems like a problem any interface with the "real world" would face. The idea of automatically occurring, no-appeal financial transactions sounds but I would claim it's always going to be problematic - only a fool or a crook would put their money in this kind of system and the crook only puts in enough money to remove the money of the fool. The ideal of say, money, is it belongs to you, where you is a broad but understandable concept. Something that belong to "whoever has X, Y, Z pieces of information about you" may sound great until someone beside you gets that information and there is no recourse. Indeed, the person who had the information "did nothing wrong" if the account really, really did belong to "whoever has this information" rather than belonging to you.

RexetBlell 9y ago
The weather feed can provided by several oracles, and the contract can take the median value. You could program whatever logic you want into the insurance. For example, some kind of dispute resolution system that appeals to a higher authority. How do insurance companies deal with this problem today? Why do you trust the insurance company not to lie and say that the weather was fine? Whatever that mechanism is, it can be programmed into a smart contract.
- rspeer 9y ago
  > How do insurance companies deal with this problem today? The legal system. It can put people in jail for fraud if necessary. Do you really want "smart" "contracts" to have the power to put people in jail? Really?
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    A smart contract wouldn't put someone in jail(how often does that directly result from a contract dispute anyway?)...a lawsuit would he how someone resolves the issue if that remedy is available and necessary