5 ms·

A younger version of myself would be against Web DRM, but these days I wonder if there's a potential for it to help in democratizing distribution among indie co

A younger version of myself would be against Web DRM, but these days I wonder if there's a potential for it to help in democratizing distribution among indie content producers. Ideally I'd have some time to piece together an essay, but the major points are: 1) Ted Nelson's vision on how Project Xanadu would have some form of copyright protection / micropayments for authors. 2) Independent content creators that have called it quits. There's tons of examples, but here's one that highlights issues: http://www.tonycomstock.com/2011/09/12/why-i-dont-make-movies-anymore-and-what-i-do-instead/ http://www.tonycomstock.com/2011/09/12/why-i-dont-make-movie... I guess I see a vision where webDRM is an improvement over the walls of 'Apps' where content may not be DRM-free, but at least be linkable/URL-addressable. (Disclaimer: I'm writing this without actually reading into the WebDRM spec, so feel free to criticize)

mmagin 9y ago
Has DRM ever actually stopped piracy?
- seltzered_ 9y ago
  No, but maybe we need to look at it from relative numbers. Example: DRM music hasn't stopped music piracy, but better models for the content distribution (i.e. DRM music platforms like spotify, etc.) have demotivated more people from bothering to pirate music.
  - bubblethink 9y ago
    A big problem with piracy is that piracy tech hasn't advanced in 2 decades, whereas the rest of the world has moved on. There are two major challenges. Due to DMCA, anonymity is a major obstacle for which there isn't a good solution yet. TOR, vpns etc. aren't well suited for content distribution. Second, the bittorrent model itself doesn't work very well for streaming.
    - mnm1 9y ago
      "Second, the bittorrent model itself doesn't work very well for streaming." Wrong. It works incredibly well. That's why the anti-piracy companies are all up in arms over things like PopcornTime. All you need are a couple of other people to download from. Hell, there's whole pieces of software whose whole purpose it is to stream torrents and they do it extremely well. Nothing even compares to the video quality, which is the same as if you downloaded the file ahead of time. "TOR, vpns etc. aren't well suited for content distribution." WTF does this mean? You can't distribute content over Tor or VPNs? I only do it every single fucking day without any problems and with ease. "Due to DMCA, anonymity is a major obstacle for which there isn't a good solution yet." The DMCA created anonymity? Whatever, I'm not even going to try to understand this one.
      - bubblethink 9y ago
        >The DMCA created anonymity? Whatever, I'm not even going to try to understand this one Not sure if you are trying to be intentionally dense. Have you heard of DMCA notices ? You get them if your IP is in the swarm, and are uploading copyrighted content. Hence the need for anonymity. >WTF does this mean? You can't distribute content over Tor or VPNs? Again, you seem to like being thick for no reason. You can distribute content over every medium imaginable. That doesn't make it the best or an efficient medium. >Wrong. It works incredibly well. You can't have adaptive streaming bitrates. The tracker model still relies on a central tracker. Magnet links solve some of those issues, but not everything. There are still some things that are, or would be better off, being centralised. There are several limitations that we don't need to go into length, but it's a far cry from incredible.
  - Tostino 9y ago
    The fact that spotify has DRM is inconsequential to it, and those like it stomping out a ton of music piracy. It's all about the distribution model, and the DRM is just to make the rights holders happy.
    - josteink 9y ago
      But Spotify is a native app. It can have all the drm it wants. It's not part of the open web.
      - scotty79 9y ago
        I always listen to spotify through web browser. I think it uses flash then.
- Fej 9y ago
  The one example I have ever seen is Denuvo DRM for PC games, in certain games for (very) limited times. Denuvo has gained widespread adoption among AAA game publishers because it tends to hold for the critical period when a game first goes on sale. The DRM is typically broken within weeks but that is good enough for the publisher, as the release period has generally passed by that point. They made their sales.
  - abecedarius 9y ago
    I think we should distinguish interactive things like games from the sort of title that's copyable via the 'analog hole' -- for movies/songs/books, effective DRM is incompatible with human liberty, but I don't have that problem with DRMed games. (This isn't to argue in favor of DRM on the web. It ought to stay in its restricted-device ghetto.)
    - kelnos 9y ago
      From a sales standpoint, I don't see the distinction. If DRM of movies is broken past the initial sale craze, and the content producers feel they've made their money before it gets broken, then they'll certainly feel that it's been a value-add for their business. If web-based DRM actually does remove the browser as an attack vector entirely, and the majority of copyright infringement occurs in other places (studio leaks, etc.), then the content producers might see that as acceptable. Regardless of all that, I think the distinction is more a philosophical one: you seem to believe that the creative output involved in a game is more reasonable to protect than the creative output involved in a movie, just because of the method of consumption. I think the "human liberty" aspect is a bit much, as well: why do you think you're entitled to the content (on "your terms") that someone else has labored to create? We can certainly argue (and probably agree) that things like copyright terms are effectively unlimited and that's wrong, and even if they were limited, DRM doesn't give you the ability to get at the content DRM-free after copyright has expired. But I don't see it as unreasonable that a content producer should be able to use technical means to protect their content for a period of time after initial distribution. I think the current implementations of DRM leave a ton to be desired, but I think the concept is sound. I think overall, though, it's a matter of market forces. People consume "pirated" content because either they can't get the content and consume it in a manner that they want to (and feel strongly enough about that to not settle for the "approved" channel), or people pirate things because they believe the price is too high for a legit copy (and then there are those who just won't pay anything at all, no matter what the price). DRM for music purchases has been largely dropped because people are happy enough with the distribution channels and price that they usually don't look for pirated copies, at least not to the extent that makes the content producers nervous. Will we eventually get to the same place with video? I don't know.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Sure. Try pirating Reason or Cubase for one...
  - yellowapple 9y ago
    I've pirated Reason on occasion. Not lately, though.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Yes, but not after they've added the dongle protection (and new (driver based?) check system).
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Other software with dongle-based protection has been pirated in the past. There will almost certainly be ways of circumventing this protection if software crackers want to do it.
        coldtea 9y ago
        I can't fathom a reason why "software crackers" don't want to do Cubase and/or Reason though. The thing is, those "dongle-based protection" have been pirated in the past only in the rare cases where an issue was found in the dongle scheme or keys where leaked, etc. And those don't happen frequently -- whereas any old school copy protection method was broken a few days/weeks at most post release (sometimes even before release, from the demo/alpha versions). Hasn't happened in 5-10 years for lots of physical key based products, so even if possible again, it's of theoritical and not practical value (we ain't seeing them anytime soon).
        DanBC 9y ago
        Fravia said, very roughly, that some of the dongle systems were secure, but the implementation by software vendors was often lousy. I guess they've stopped being lousy at the implementation.
quickben 9y ago
As far as I know/talked to Indies/helped some, no. #1 on most of their lists is getting the music/name out. DRM is counterproductive.
- kobeya 9y ago
  How much of this is a result of the predatory music industry where musicians typically never see anything from album sales anyway?
bubblethink 9y ago
>democratizing distribution among indie content producers So I have this idea for a video/audio streaming website that operates like an open market. Website operator makes a cut for infrastructure costs. Other than that, the site runs pretty much on its own. No content deals, no drm, no geo restrictions, no ads. Some safeguards to limit abuse. A producer puts up content. Consumers consume content. Revenues are split between producers using some fair and transparent proportionality metric. Would there be any appetite for such a model ?
- phit_ 9y ago
  so Patreon plus content hosting?
  - bubblethink 9y ago
    Patreon is more about supporting individual projects. I'm thinking more like netflix/spotify + youtube + ebay. As an end user, you still pay some monthly fees. The total money is divided up between all the producers using some metric minus operating costs. As a producer, your job is pretty much clicking on upload.
- techer 9y ago
  https://www.collide.com https://www.collide.com Not sure if it fulfills everything and I like your model better.
- etatoby 9y ago
  > no drm > no ads > revenues Does not compute.

mmagin 9y ago

Has DRM ever actually stopped piracy?

seltzered_ 9y ago
No, but maybe we need to look at it from relative numbers. Example: DRM music hasn't stopped music piracy, but better models for the content distribution (i.e. DRM music platforms like spotify, etc.) have demotivated more people from bothering to pirate music.
- bubblethink 9y ago
  A big problem with piracy is that piracy tech hasn't advanced in 2 decades, whereas the rest of the world has moved on. There are two major challenges. Due to DMCA, anonymity is a major obstacle for which there isn't a good solution yet. TOR, vpns etc. aren't well suited for content distribution. Second, the bittorrent model itself doesn't work very well for streaming.
  - mnm1 9y ago
    "Second, the bittorrent model itself doesn't work very well for streaming." Wrong. It works incredibly well. That's why the anti-piracy companies are all up in arms over things like PopcornTime. All you need are a couple of other people to download from. Hell, there's whole pieces of software whose whole purpose it is to stream torrents and they do it extremely well. Nothing even compares to the video quality, which is the same as if you downloaded the file ahead of time. "TOR, vpns etc. aren't well suited for content distribution." WTF does this mean? You can't distribute content over Tor or VPNs? I only do it every single fucking day without any problems and with ease. "Due to DMCA, anonymity is a major obstacle for which there isn't a good solution yet." The DMCA created anonymity? Whatever, I'm not even going to try to understand this one.
    - bubblethink 9y ago
      >The DMCA created anonymity? Whatever, I'm not even going to try to understand this one Not sure if you are trying to be intentionally dense. Have you heard of DMCA notices ? You get them if your IP is in the swarm, and are uploading copyrighted content. Hence the need for anonymity. >WTF does this mean? You can't distribute content over Tor or VPNs? Again, you seem to like being thick for no reason. You can distribute content over every medium imaginable. That doesn't make it the best or an efficient medium. >Wrong. It works incredibly well. You can't have adaptive streaming bitrates. The tracker model still relies on a central tracker. Magnet links solve some of those issues, but not everything. There are still some things that are, or would be better off, being centralised. There are several limitations that we don't need to go into length, but it's a far cry from incredible.
- Tostino 9y ago
  The fact that spotify has DRM is inconsequential to it, and those like it stomping out a ton of music piracy. It's all about the distribution model, and the DRM is just to make the rights holders happy.
  - josteink 9y ago
    But Spotify is a native app. It can have all the drm it wants. It's not part of the open web.
    - scotty79 9y ago
      I always listen to spotify through web browser. I think it uses flash then.
Fej 9y ago
The one example I have ever seen is Denuvo DRM for PC games, in certain games for (very) limited times. Denuvo has gained widespread adoption among AAA game publishers because it tends to hold for the critical period when a game first goes on sale. The DRM is typically broken within weeks but that is good enough for the publisher, as the release period has generally passed by that point. They made their sales.
- abecedarius 9y ago
  I think we should distinguish interactive things like games from the sort of title that's copyable via the 'analog hole' -- for movies/songs/books, effective DRM is incompatible with human liberty, but I don't have that problem with DRMed games. (This isn't to argue in favor of DRM on the web. It ought to stay in its restricted-device ghetto.)
  - kelnos 9y ago
    From a sales standpoint, I don't see the distinction. If DRM of movies is broken past the initial sale craze, and the content producers feel they've made their money before it gets broken, then they'll certainly feel that it's been a value-add for their business. If web-based DRM actually does remove the browser as an attack vector entirely, and the majority of copyright infringement occurs in other places (studio leaks, etc.), then the content producers might see that as acceptable. Regardless of all that, I think the distinction is more a philosophical one: you seem to believe that the creative output involved in a game is more reasonable to protect than the creative output involved in a movie, just because of the method of consumption. I think the "human liberty" aspect is a bit much, as well: why do you think you're entitled to the content (on "your terms") that someone else has labored to create? We can certainly argue (and probably agree) that things like copyright terms are effectively unlimited and that's wrong, and even if they were limited, DRM doesn't give you the ability to get at the content DRM-free after copyright has expired. But I don't see it as unreasonable that a content producer should be able to use technical means to protect their content for a period of time after initial distribution. I think the current implementations of DRM leave a ton to be desired, but I think the concept is sound. I think overall, though, it's a matter of market forces. People consume "pirated" content because either they can't get the content and consume it in a manner that they want to (and feel strongly enough about that to not settle for the "approved" channel), or people pirate things because they believe the price is too high for a legit copy (and then there are those who just won't pay anything at all, no matter what the price). DRM for music purchases has been largely dropped because people are happy enough with the distribution channels and price that they usually don't look for pirated copies, at least not to the extent that makes the content producers nervous. Will we eventually get to the same place with video? I don't know.
coldtea 9y ago
Sure. Try pirating Reason or Cubase for one...
- yellowapple 9y ago
  I've pirated Reason on occasion. Not lately, though.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Yes, but not after they've added the dongle protection (and new (driver based?) check system).
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      Other software with dongle-based protection has been pirated in the past. There will almost certainly be ways of circumventing this protection if software crackers want to do it.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        I can't fathom a reason why "software crackers" don't want to do Cubase and/or Reason though. The thing is, those "dongle-based protection" have been pirated in the past only in the rare cases where an issue was found in the dongle scheme or keys where leaked, etc. And those don't happen frequently -- whereas any old school copy protection method was broken a few days/weeks at most post release (sometimes even before release, from the demo/alpha versions). Hasn't happened in 5-10 years for lots of physical key based products, so even if possible again, it's of theoritical and not practical value (we ain't seeing them anytime soon).
        DanBC 9y ago
        Fravia said, very roughly, that some of the dongle systems were secure, but the implementation by software vendors was often lousy. I guess they've stopped being lousy at the implementation.

quickben 9y ago

As far as I know/talked to Indies/helped some, no. #1 on most of their lists is getting the music/name out. DRM is counterproductive.

kobeya 9y ago
How much of this is a result of the predatory music industry where musicians typically never see anything from album sales anyway?

bubblethink 9y ago

>democratizing distribution among indie content producers So I have this idea for a video/audio streaming website that operates like an open market. Website operator makes a cut for infrastructure costs. Other than that, the site runs pretty much on its own. No content deals, no drm, no geo restrictions, no ads. Some safeguards to limit abuse. A producer puts up content. Consumers consume content. Revenues are split between producers using some fair and transparent proportionality metric. Would there be any appetite for such a model ?

phit_ 9y ago
so Patreon plus content hosting?
- bubblethink 9y ago
  Patreon is more about supporting individual projects. I'm thinking more like netflix/spotify + youtube + ebay. As an end user, you still pay some monthly fees. The total money is divided up between all the producers using some metric minus operating costs. As a producer, your job is pretty much clicking on upload.
techer 9y ago
https://www.collide.com https://www.collide.com Not sure if it fulfills everything and I like your model better.
etatoby 9y ago
> no drm > no ads > revenues Does not compute.