8 ms·

Most Waymo Patent Claims Dropped in Autonomous Car Fight with Uber

162 points by pfarnsworth 9y ago

perseusprime11 9y ago
Does anyone know if those 14k files have any evidence linking to Uber's design? If there is no wrongdoing, Uber should continue to figure out autonomous cars as a service model.
- moomin 9y ago
  I imagine google think they have, but the truth is, a document saying that approach X does not work would save anyone who read it a lot of money. And the only thing you'd see in the final design was that it didn't use X.
idibidiart 9y ago
Misleading title. Makes it sound like they were wrong and are backing off. The patents being dropped are those which Uber is no longer using but was using at some point in their prototypes. There remains one key patent that Uber is still using and Alphabet is still suing them for it.
- sctb 9y ago
  Thanks, we've updated the title slightly to clarify.
- azylman 9y ago
  Google's spin is that they're dropping them because they're no longer using them, but the reality is that the judge has told them they're wrong: > Judge William Alsup of Federal District Court in San Francisco, who is overseeing the case, urged the company’s lawyers at a hearing on June 7 to drop the patent claims because "you’re going to lose on all these patent claims unless you pull some rabbit out of a hat."
  - idibidiart 9y ago
    "you’re going to lose on all these patent claims ..." because Uber is no longer using them. Waiting to be asked by the judge to drop them is the only valid political chess move they had. Withdrawing them without being asked would be worse, IMO. But the reason remains the same: Uber used to have them in their design/prototypes but they no longer do.
    - azylman 9y ago
      The judge asked them to drop all the patent claims, even the one that Google claims Uber is still using/infringing, which means it's unlikely to be related to whether or not Uber was or continues to infringe on them and more likely to be related to the strength of the patents themselves. A lot of patents get invalidated during cases like these...
      - idibidiart 9y ago
        "Likely to ne related to the strength of the patents" means that the patents have been scrutinized by the court and determined to be invalid. But that is not the case.
iamleppert 9y ago
It seems to me, that Waymo/Google has no real interest in their self-driving car program. Anthony Levandowski went to Uber because he is interested in furthering self-driving car technology into practical applications and Uber offered to actually, really prioritize his project and make his dreams a reality. That's the only logical explanation of his actions; he thought Uber would be a better technology and business partner. Setting aside the legal issues of whether what he did was right or not, I don't think Google would be the right custodian of this project anyway. For the greater good of the world, we need self-driving cars to become a reality. And Google just isn't going to do it. They are invested in self-driving cars like they are invested in contact lenses, or drones, or robots, or go-playing AI, and half-dozen other things. Uber was/is a far more logical choice for a company that is going to be both motivated and pragmatic enough to bring this technology to market. Google has been working on it for ages and we have yet to see a serious attempt at a non-academic implementation.
- kartD 9y ago
  Umm, Waymo has an early rider program... https://waymo.com/apply/ https://waymo.com/apply/ I don't see how they have no interest, none of their other projects were upgraded to separate company status. Also, they've been working on it for 10+ years so it's outlasted most of their other "projects"
- pishpash 9y ago
  > Google has been working on it for ages and we have yet to see a serious attempt at a non-academic implementation. I trust Google way more than Uber to do something like this right (i.e. not kill people), even if it takes "forever."
  - gxs 9y ago
    As much as I personally dislike Google, I have to agree with you here.
- joshuamorton 9y ago
  (I work at google) >Google has been working on it for ages and we have yet to see a serious attempt at a non-academic implementation. This seems like a claim made without knowledge. The 2016 autonomous vehicle disengagement reports [0][1] show that Waymo is an order of magnitude ahead of any competitor in miles driven and vehicle reliability. And as another user mentioned, Waymo is currently testing with real consumers and a large fleet of vehicles in Phoenix [2]. [0]: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/autonomous/disengagement_report_2016 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/autonomous/disen... [1]: https://www.wired.com/2017/02/california-dmv-autonomous-car-disengagement/ https://www.wired.com/2017/02/california-dmv-autonomous-car-... [2]: https://waymo.com/apply/ https://waymo.com/apply/
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
TL;DR: Not much real change. "Most" is "3 out of 4". That's not quite as dramatic as the headline makes it sound. Also note that the case is primarily about trade secrets, not patents.
mmanfrin 9y ago
Title feels a little clickbaity, as it was a request from the Judge prior to going to a Jury: U.S. District Judge William Alsup in San Francisco has asked Waymo to narrow its more than 100 trade secrets claims to fewer than 10 to put in front of a jury.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Reformatted for mobile users: U.S. District Judge William Alsup in San Francisco has asked Waymo to narrow its more than 100 trade secrets claims to fewer than 10 to put in front of a jury.
  - austenallred 9y ago
    @dang/HN team: Considering how often snippets are used on HN, is there another way to format those on mobile? Thanks for all you do!
    - mi100hael 9y ago
      The solution is for users to not use monospaced, pre-formatted text for things other than code snippets.
      - gpawl 9y ago
        If users have to work around server errors, it's not a solution.
        freehunter 9y ago
        It's not a server error, it's a user error. Stop using monospace for things that don't need it.
      - RodericDay 9y ago
        I think monospaced should be like ``` monospaced ``` And the four-space/tab indentation should denote a quote But that's just me.
wand3r 9y ago
Google is going to increase or fully acquire Uber. Uber has virtually no management in place right now and I could hypothetically see that clearing being pragmatic for the social reasons, but potentially part of a deal with Google for business ones. Maybe they will reach a settlement before this goes to court. This is obviously unfounded speculation but a few other points whole C suite is pretty much gone Uber is integrated into Gmaps. Currently running an existing user promo for $15 if executed through maps. Whole Uber team has apparently trained on Googles tech already so on boarding will be easier It's Googles core competency They already own a smallish percentage They seem to be focused on production, key exec was let go from Ford for wrecking a Frenemy partnership trade of AI / Tech for Ford production expertise. They have the synergy with Gmaps, much of the AI and prototyping with Waymo and they can turn around the negative sentiment. They need the network short term to ramp up whatever their play is for the future. I can see this being reasonable. Uber is a financial mess with limited upside if this case goes south and is only attractive to a few buyers. Google, already being an investor is one of they few Incs with the knowledge and capital to actually get value from this cash fire.
- throwaway91111 9y ago
  Doesn't waymo already have a deal to supply self driving cars to lyft? What would they get from Uber but a competing service? The brand seems like a liability in this case. Hell, if anything, i'd use this to force Uber to license the cars from Waymo, too.
  - macspoofing 9y ago
    They would drop lyft. >The brand seems like a liability in this case. Cheaper to buy.
- draw_down 9y ago
  You guys are funny.
- LeoNatan25 9y ago
  With much of the sexual impropriety stories at Uber, is it really a good PR move for Google to go ahead with such acquisition?
sillysaurus3 9y ago
Reformatted for mobile users: EDIT: The parent edited their comment, so I've removed my reply, as it's no longer necessary. This seems like a valuable service, and I'd like to continue doing this, but perhaps I'll add a disclaimer asking people not to talk about HN in the replies to minimize noise. If you have questions or concerns about the site, please email hn@ycombinator.com rather than leaving a comment.
- cardiffspaceman 9y ago
  As a desktop user with a 30" monitor I also appreciate this reformatting. The other method of quoting renders in monospaced font that looks bad.
- sctb 9y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14720569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14720569 and marked it off-topic.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Thanks! I don't know whether to keep doing this or not so if you have an opinion one way or the other, let me know. The community seems to appreciate it, but on the other hand it adds noise. Though one benefit is that it nudges users toward using italics for quotes instead of code blocks.
- gregw134 9y ago
  Come on hacker news, fix your css.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    The CSS is correct. Abusing code formatting for quotes is the problem. (The fact that HN has no dedicated markup for quotes and very little available markup at all is also a problem, but using code blocks for quotes is not a solution, or even a good workaround, for that.)
- deleted 9y ago
Fricken 9y ago
The trade secrets part of the case supposedly has legs, just not very long ones given Uber didn't use the trade secrets Levandowski supposedly stole. When Waymo first levied the case against Uber I was of the unpopular opinion that it wasn't as strong as it looked. Nonetheless, it ruined Levandowski's career and counted for about a gallon's worth of gasoline on the fire of negative public opinion and investor rage against Uber and it's leadership. Even if Waymo loses in court, it's still a win.
- justicezyx 9y ago
  > it ruined Levandowski's caree How so? Like saying police ruined a criminal's normal life?...

162 points by pfarnsworth 9y ago

Does anyone know if those 14k files have any evidence linking to Uber's design? If there is no wrongdoing, Uber should continue to figure out autonomous cars as a service model.

moomin 9y ago
I imagine google think they have, but the truth is, a document saying that approach X does not work would save anyone who read it a lot of money. And the only thing you'd see in the final design was that it didn't use X.

idibidiart 9y ago

Misleading title. Makes it sound like they were wrong and are backing off. The patents being dropped are those which Uber is no longer using but was using at some point in their prototypes. There remains one key patent that Uber is still using and Alphabet is still suing them for it.

sctb 9y ago
Thanks, we've updated the title slightly to clarify.
azylman 9y ago
Google's spin is that they're dropping them because they're no longer using them, but the reality is that the judge has told them they're wrong: > Judge William Alsup of Federal District Court in San Francisco, who is overseeing the case, urged the company’s lawyers at a hearing on June 7 to drop the patent claims because "you’re going to lose on all these patent claims unless you pull some rabbit out of a hat."
- idibidiart 9y ago
  "you’re going to lose on all these patent claims ..." because Uber is no longer using them. Waiting to be asked by the judge to drop them is the only valid political chess move they had. Withdrawing them without being asked would be worse, IMO. But the reason remains the same: Uber used to have them in their design/prototypes but they no longer do.
  - azylman 9y ago
    The judge asked them to drop all the patent claims, even the one that Google claims Uber is still using/infringing, which means it's unlikely to be related to whether or not Uber was or continues to infringe on them and more likely to be related to the strength of the patents themselves. A lot of patents get invalidated during cases like these...
    - idibidiart 9y ago
      "Likely to ne related to the strength of the patents" means that the patents have been scrutinized by the court and determined to be invalid. But that is not the case.

iamleppert 9y ago

It seems to me, that Waymo/Google has no real interest in their self-driving car program. Anthony Levandowski went to Uber because he is interested in furthering self-driving car technology into practical applications and Uber offered to actually, really prioritize his project and make his dreams a reality. That's the only logical explanation of his actions; he thought Uber would be a better technology and business partner. Setting aside the legal issues of whether what he did was right or not, I don't think Google would be the right custodian of this project anyway. For the greater good of the world, we need self-driving cars to become a reality. And Google just isn't going to do it. They are invested in self-driving cars like they are invested in contact lenses, or drones, or robots, or go-playing AI, and half-dozen other things. Uber was/is a far more logical choice for a company that is going to be both motivated and pragmatic enough to bring this technology to market. Google has been working on it for ages and we have yet to see a serious attempt at a non-academic implementation.

kartD 9y ago
Umm, Waymo has an early rider program... https://waymo.com/apply/ https://waymo.com/apply/ I don't see how they have no interest, none of their other projects were upgraded to separate company status. Also, they've been working on it for 10+ years so it's outlasted most of their other "projects"
pishpash 9y ago
> Google has been working on it for ages and we have yet to see a serious attempt at a non-academic implementation. I trust Google way more than Uber to do something like this right (i.e. not kill people), even if it takes "forever."
- gxs 9y ago
  As much as I personally dislike Google, I have to agree with you here.
joshuamorton 9y ago
(I work at google) >Google has been working on it for ages and we have yet to see a serious attempt at a non-academic implementation. This seems like a claim made without knowledge. The 2016 autonomous vehicle disengagement reports [0][1] show that Waymo is an order of magnitude ahead of any competitor in miles driven and vehicle reliability. And as another user mentioned, Waymo is currently testing with real consumers and a large fleet of vehicles in Phoenix [2]. [0]: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/autonomous/disengagement_report_2016 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/autonomous/disen... [1]: https://www.wired.com/2017/02/california-dmv-autonomous-car-disengagement/ https://www.wired.com/2017/02/california-dmv-autonomous-car-... [2]: https://waymo.com/apply/ https://waymo.com/apply/

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

TL;DR: Not much real change. "Most" is "3 out of 4". That's not quite as dramatic as the headline makes it sound. Also note that the case is primarily about trade secrets, not patents.

mmanfrin 9y ago

Title feels a little clickbaity, as it was a request from the Judge prior to going to a Jury: U.S. District Judge William Alsup in San Francisco has asked Waymo to narrow its more than 100 trade secrets claims to fewer than 10 to put in front of a jury.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
Reformatted for mobile users: U.S. District Judge William Alsup in San Francisco has asked Waymo to narrow its more than 100 trade secrets claims to fewer than 10 to put in front of a jury.
- austenallred 9y ago
  @dang/HN team: Considering how often snippets are used on HN, is there another way to format those on mobile? Thanks for all you do!
  - mi100hael 9y ago
    The solution is for users to not use monospaced, pre-formatted text for things other than code snippets.
    - gpawl 9y ago
      If users have to work around server errors, it's not a solution.
      - freehunter 9y ago
        It's not a server error, it's a user error. Stop using monospace for things that don't need it.
    - RodericDay 9y ago
      I think monospaced should be like ``` monospaced ``` And the four-space/tab indentation should denote a quote But that's just me.

wand3r 9y ago

Google is going to increase or fully acquire Uber. Uber has virtually no management in place right now and I could hypothetically see that clearing being pragmatic for the social reasons, but potentially part of a deal with Google for business ones. Maybe they will reach a settlement before this goes to court. This is obviously unfounded speculation but a few other points whole C suite is pretty much gone Uber is integrated into Gmaps. Currently running an existing user promo for $15 if executed through maps. Whole Uber team has apparently trained on Googles tech already so on boarding will be easier It's Googles core competency They already own a smallish percentage They seem to be focused on production, key exec was let go from Ford for wrecking a Frenemy partnership trade of AI / Tech for Ford production expertise. They have the synergy with Gmaps, much of the AI and prototyping with Waymo and they can turn around the negative sentiment. They need the network short term to ramp up whatever their play is for the future. I can see this being reasonable. Uber is a financial mess with limited upside if this case goes south and is only attractive to a few buyers. Google, already being an investor is one of they few Incs with the knowledge and capital to actually get value from this cash fire.

throwaway91111 9y ago
Doesn't waymo already have a deal to supply self driving cars to lyft? What would they get from Uber but a competing service? The brand seems like a liability in this case. Hell, if anything, i'd use this to force Uber to license the cars from Waymo, too.
- macspoofing 9y ago
  They would drop lyft. >The brand seems like a liability in this case. Cheaper to buy.
draw_down 9y ago
You guys are funny.
LeoNatan25 9y ago
With much of the sexual impropriety stories at Uber, is it really a good PR move for Google to go ahead with such acquisition?

sillysaurus3 9y ago

Reformatted for mobile users: EDIT: The parent edited their comment, so I've removed my reply, as it's no longer necessary. This seems like a valuable service, and I'd like to continue doing this, but perhaps I'll add a disclaimer asking people not to talk about HN in the replies to minimize noise. If you have questions or concerns about the site, please email hn@ycombinator.com rather than leaving a comment.

cardiffspaceman 9y ago
As a desktop user with a 30" monitor I also appreciate this reformatting. The other method of quoting renders in monospaced font that looks bad.
sctb 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14720569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14720569 and marked it off-topic.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Thanks! I don't know whether to keep doing this or not so if you have an opinion one way or the other, let me know. The community seems to appreciate it, but on the other hand it adds noise. Though one benefit is that it nudges users toward using italics for quotes instead of code blocks.
gregw134 9y ago
Come on hacker news, fix your css.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  The CSS is correct. Abusing code formatting for quotes is the problem. (The fact that HN has no dedicated markup for quotes and very little available markup at all is also a problem, but using code blocks for quotes is not a solution, or even a good workaround, for that.)
deleted 9y ago

Fricken 9y ago

The trade secrets part of the case supposedly has legs, just not very long ones given Uber didn't use the trade secrets Levandowski supposedly stole. When Waymo first levied the case against Uber I was of the unpopular opinion that it wasn't as strong as it looked. Nonetheless, it ruined Levandowski's career and counted for about a gallon's worth of gasoline on the fire of negative public opinion and investor rage against Uber and it's leadership. Even if Waymo loses in court, it's still a win.

justicezyx 9y ago
> it ruined Levandowski's caree How so? Like saying police ruined a criminal's normal life?...