5 ms·

Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto? Is your pride really so hurt that someone wanted to help you out around the office tha

Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto? Is your pride really so hurt that someone wanted to help you out around the office that you refuse to believe that you could have learned anything useful from it? You can't even come out of it with another friend, a future business contact, an interpersonal skill, deeper knowledge of a workplace tool? It's great if some people don't think they need help overcoming sexist barriers in the office, some people do. No need to over-complicate it.

abduhl 9y ago
Aren't your posts here telling the GP how important and useful a specific group for females is despite them explaining why they didn't want want to be a part of it a form of mansplaining?
- unidentified103 9y ago
  Why are you assuming that I'm a man? Either way, these kinds of programs are useful for certain people and there are lots of other articles in defense of them. Just because one person didn't want to participate doesn't mean that other people aren't happy that they exist.
  - tracker1 9y ago
    But why single out a given group? Why not offer everyone an "intern buddy"? Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out?
    - unidentified103 9y ago
      Do you believe decisions like this are randomly made? > "Why not offer everyone an 'intern buddy'" Female interns could have complained about sexual harassment, female interns could have had lower rates of accepting return offers, etc. > "Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out" The program had been going on for a while. They could have had data that suggested that female interns would be interested in such a program but had fears about bringing it to the attention of their managers or had fears of the repercussions of being one of the few who accepted.
      - tracker1 9y ago
        Do you believe that decisions like this exclude men because women are so much more fragile and need more help than men? Do you think that men may not need similar help. "intern buddy" doesn't imply a gender role, and maybe should choose to be an inclusive concept instead of exclusive. The also could have just winged it and made the decision without backing data based on the advice of a gender studies professional.
        unidentified103 9y ago
        I don't know what reasons Microsoft had for making the program exclusive to women, because I think men would also benefit. Here's my guess: gender affects mentorship. An older man having a close working relationship with a young woman, inviting her out to lunch, and getting drinks after work carries implications that simply do not exist with a young man. Having these interactions take place within a socially sanctioned program helps everyone out because it clarifies the nature of the relationship to both the participants and the onlookers.
        meej 9y ago
        Microsoft didn't make the program.
      - 0x8BADF00D 9y ago
        As an aside, my first job involved mentoring software engineering interns. I was the "intern buddy", and the policy was for all incoming interns regardless of their gender. The transition from college to work life can be challenging for many people (it was for me, I wish I had an intern buddy), regardless of their gender.
        unidentified103 9y ago
        Yeah, it seems to me like such a program would be a great addition to the onboarding process at many companies.
        9y ago
tomc1985 9y ago
Because it implies an opinion of weakness to the party offering said "help". Many people do not need or want help and forcing it on them only serves to enforce hidden power dynamics on behalf of the requestor. What I really don't understand is how we men can act so innocent about all this. "Oh, I was just asking a question," "I didn't force her to do anything," "she was free to decline," "what, how could you not want help? Think of all the [rationalizations]!" and so on.... Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Intentions are as clear as the sky on a sunny day... People who see others as equals treat people differently than those who think they see a potential partner, or victim, or lackey... EDIT: Also, "mansplaining"
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  You are super angry at something. Maybe that something is perfectly valid but it does not seem a reasonable reaction to the situation at hand. You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs because anything could result in non productive conflict. Have you considered people might be reacting to your hostility not your gender?
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    I am. Technology was in such a good place; the internet was a buffet of information free and available perused mostly by nerds, the clueless, and the occasional asshat. Now that all this crap's gone mainstream, the best info was bought up, and positivity-sucking muggles have ruined all that's left.
  - OJFord 9y ago
    > You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs And yet...
    - michaelmrose 9y ago
      There is limited risk in talking to strangers on the Internet unless you say horrendously racist things then become Internet famous for it.
dilemma 9y ago
You're clearly not part of a minority group.
- unidentified103 9y ago
  That's a confusing reaction to what I said and what I'm arguing against. Edit: For the record, I'm a bisexual Mexican woman. Of course there are times when I perceive people as holding my hand too much and I know it can feel condescending. When I reflect on it, though, no, it's not the same brand of condescension that made my middle school teacher tell me I had no future in math. There's something strange about victimizing yourself out of fear that people are victimizing you. An internship program for women at Microsoft isn't a ghetto; it can only come from a place of extreme privilege and ignorance to believe so.
wutbrodo 9y ago
> Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto? Man, it's beyond irritating to see this kind "what's the big deal? just chill" type rhetoric used in this context. Particularly because it's a hard-fought (and ongoing) battle to stop this _same exact logic_ from being used to deflate complaints about what it's like for underrepresented minorities in the workplace.
- unidentified103 9y ago
  The argument here was that being offered assistance is personally insulting. In this case, I think the "same exact logic" holds. Yes, the line of questioning is a bit of an abrasive way of putting someone on the defensive, but I wanted to have a clear and direct answer for why the ghetto comparison held.
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    My point is that all the arguments used to rebut this line of thinking when applied to more conventional complaints from underrepresented people apply just as well here. If "the same exact logic" holds, what exactly makes the same exact rebuttals magically invalid?
    - unidentified103 9y ago
      What are the rebuttals?
      - jboles 9y ago
        > "what's the big deal? just chill" type rhetoric
      - wutbrodo 9y ago
        Usually it's something like "you can't minimize someone else's experience if they're expressing that it's affecting their work life", "clearly there's a problem since they are underrepresented", etc. They're usually pretty unfalsifiable, but they're not unreasonable, and the line of acceptable discourse has been firmly drawn to exclude questioning them. I'm skeptical that you're actually unaware of these rebuttals: if I said to someone something like "what's the big deal, who cares that you're the only Latina in this company, the only one making a big deal out of it is you", I'm sure these rebuttals would readily come to mind. If not because you believe them, then at least because they're so ubiquitous. Deciding that they're appropriate just because you disagree with the specific policy being criticized is kind of weaselly.
Mithorium 9y ago
I wish more people were like you. If everyone tried to assume the best of others until proven otherwise instead of assuming the worst we would all be much happier as a group
- Doxin 9y ago
  Sure, but that buddy system sure sounds a lot like pushing someone in a wheelchair, them asking you to stop, and you going on regardless. Unwanted help is unwanted.
weberc2 9y ago
"why take things personally?" The same could probably be asked of many of the "sexist barriers" you allude to. Intentions And pragmatism have never been relevant with regards to inclusivity; why should they now be? Because the offender has the right politics?

abduhl 9y ago

Aren't your posts here telling the GP how important and useful a specific group for females is despite them explaining why they didn't want want to be a part of it a form of mansplaining?

unidentified103 9y ago
Why are you assuming that I'm a man? Either way, these kinds of programs are useful for certain people and there are lots of other articles in defense of them. Just because one person didn't want to participate doesn't mean that other people aren't happy that they exist.
- tracker1 9y ago
  But why single out a given group? Why not offer everyone an "intern buddy"? Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out?
  - unidentified103 9y ago
    Do you believe decisions like this are randomly made? > "Why not offer everyone an 'intern buddy'" Female interns could have complained about sexual harassment, female interns could have had lower rates of accepting return offers, etc. > "Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out" The program had been going on for a while. They could have had data that suggested that female interns would be interested in such a program but had fears about bringing it to the attention of their managers or had fears of the repercussions of being one of the few who accepted.
    - tracker1 9y ago
      Do you believe that decisions like this exclude men because women are so much more fragile and need more help than men? Do you think that men may not need similar help. "intern buddy" doesn't imply a gender role, and maybe should choose to be an inclusive concept instead of exclusive. The also could have just winged it and made the decision without backing data based on the advice of a gender studies professional.
      - unidentified103 9y ago
        I don't know what reasons Microsoft had for making the program exclusive to women, because I think men would also benefit. Here's my guess: gender affects mentorship. An older man having a close working relationship with a young woman, inviting her out to lunch, and getting drinks after work carries implications that simply do not exist with a young man. Having these interactions take place within a socially sanctioned program helps everyone out because it clarifies the nature of the relationship to both the participants and the onlookers.
        meej 9y ago
        Microsoft didn't make the program.
    - 0x8BADF00D 9y ago
      As an aside, my first job involved mentoring software engineering interns. I was the "intern buddy", and the policy was for all incoming interns regardless of their gender. The transition from college to work life can be challenging for many people (it was for me, I wish I had an intern buddy), regardless of their gender.
      - unidentified103 9y ago
        Yeah, it seems to me like such a program would be a great addition to the onboarding process at many companies.
      - 9y ago

tomc1985 9y ago

Because it implies an opinion of weakness to the party offering said "help". Many people do not need or want help and forcing it on them only serves to enforce hidden power dynamics on behalf of the requestor. What I really don't understand is how we men can act so innocent about all this. "Oh, I was just asking a question," "I didn't force her to do anything," "she was free to decline," "what, how could you not want help? Think of all the [rationalizations]!" and so on.... Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Intentions are as clear as the sky on a sunny day... People who see others as equals treat people differently than those who think they see a potential partner, or victim, or lackey... EDIT: Also, "mansplaining"

michaelmrose 9y ago
You are super angry at something. Maybe that something is perfectly valid but it does not seem a reasonable reaction to the situation at hand. You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs because anything could result in non productive conflict. Have you considered people might be reacting to your hostility not your gender?
- tomc1985 9y ago
  I am. Technology was in such a good place; the internet was a buffet of information free and available perused mostly by nerds, the clueless, and the occasional asshat. Now that all this crap's gone mainstream, the best info was bought up, and positivity-sucking muggles have ruined all that's left.
- OJFord 9y ago
  > You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs And yet...
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    There is limited risk in talking to strangers on the Internet unless you say horrendously racist things then become Internet famous for it.

dilemma 9y ago

You're clearly not part of a minority group.

unidentified103 9y ago
That's a confusing reaction to what I said and what I'm arguing against. Edit: For the record, I'm a bisexual Mexican woman. Of course there are times when I perceive people as holding my hand too much and I know it can feel condescending. When I reflect on it, though, no, it's not the same brand of condescension that made my middle school teacher tell me I had no future in math. There's something strange about victimizing yourself out of fear that people are victimizing you. An internship program for women at Microsoft isn't a ghetto; it can only come from a place of extreme privilege and ignorance to believe so.

wutbrodo 9y ago

> Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto? Man, it's beyond irritating to see this kind "what's the big deal? just chill" type rhetoric used in this context. Particularly because it's a hard-fought (and ongoing) battle to stop this _same exact logic_ from being used to deflate complaints about what it's like for underrepresented minorities in the workplace.

unidentified103 9y ago
The argument here was that being offered assistance is personally insulting. In this case, I think the "same exact logic" holds. Yes, the line of questioning is a bit of an abrasive way of putting someone on the defensive, but I wanted to have a clear and direct answer for why the ghetto comparison held.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  My point is that all the arguments used to rebut this line of thinking when applied to more conventional complaints from underrepresented people apply just as well here. If "the same exact logic" holds, what exactly makes the same exact rebuttals magically invalid?
  - unidentified103 9y ago
    What are the rebuttals?
    - jboles 9y ago
      > "what's the big deal? just chill" type rhetoric
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
      Usually it's something like "you can't minimize someone else's experience if they're expressing that it's affecting their work life", "clearly there's a problem since they are underrepresented", etc. They're usually pretty unfalsifiable, but they're not unreasonable, and the line of acceptable discourse has been firmly drawn to exclude questioning them. I'm skeptical that you're actually unaware of these rebuttals: if I said to someone something like "what's the big deal, who cares that you're the only Latina in this company, the only one making a big deal out of it is you", I'm sure these rebuttals would readily come to mind. If not because you believe them, then at least because they're so ubiquitous. Deciding that they're appropriate just because you disagree with the specific policy being criticized is kind of weaselly.

Mithorium 9y ago

I wish more people were like you. If everyone tried to assume the best of others until proven otherwise instead of assuming the worst we would all be much happier as a group

Doxin 9y ago
Sure, but that buddy system sure sounds a lot like pushing someone in a wheelchair, them asking you to stop, and you going on regardless. Unwanted help is unwanted.

weberc2 9y ago

"why take things personally?" The same could probably be asked of many of the "sexist barriers" you allude to. Intentions And pragmatism have never been relevant with regards to inclusivity; why should they now be? Because the offender has the right politics?