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Was there really something wrong with that phrasing? How would you improve it? Genuinely curious; I think I'd have phrased it the same way (though at every plac

Was there really something wrong with that phrasing? How would you improve it? Genuinely curious; I think I'd have phrased it the same way (though at every place I've worked we'd have done a review like this face to face), and I find it pretty non-confrontational. Enjoyed the letter you shared. Gene is truly missed.

specialist 9y ago
"Hi cholantesh! Just saw your new survey. Looks great! Hey, have you seen the HRC's recommendations for surveying gender? I've used their guidelines in the past. Very helpful! http://www.hrc.org/resources/collecting-transgender-inclusive-gender-data-in-workplace-and-other-surveys http://www.hrc.org/resources/collecting-transgender-inclusiv... TLDR: They suggest splitting the gender question into two parts. As you know, this is a super important issue for me. Progress! Exciting! If you're busy, I'll make a pull request. Please let me know if I can help in any way. Thank you, Specialist"
- cholantesh 9y ago
  Whoa, those exclamation marks woke me right up from my midafternoon coma haha. Thanks for this, I'll keep this kind of tone in mind.
- gxespino 9y ago
  Why thank you for that clarification! I'm quite busy but can definitely submit a PR within the next few days. Feel free to do it first and I'll take a look, though. :)
  - StrangeOrange 9y ago
    Have you guys ever heard of Victorian England? Because that's where you're headed with this kind of language. I can't wait until we all start wearing thick, black, woollen coats in the summertime...
    - gxespino 9y ago
      Idk. Every time I've wanted something done, this sort of language usually resulted in better outcomes as opposed to being direct, especially when communicating with someone I don't know very well, or a superior.
- nojvek 9y ago
  Why so much sugarcoating? Feedback was straightforward. I didn't see any aggressive words. Most of out PRs are to the point. Sometimes the big problem I find is that in some companies people are just scared of each other that they fail to communicate. Best places where I worked: people were to the point, they had healthy debates even with strong opinions.
  - 6nf 9y ago
    Some people need the sugar, some do not. It's not always easy to work out which is which so you may need to err on the side of caution until you know your co-workers better.
  - HelloWorldInWS 9y ago
    > Why so much sugarcoating? Because empathy is important to communicating effectively. You're looking at the words, but you're not looking at phrasing and tone, which are just as important. Try this exercise: read the sentence out loud to yourself. Taking a line out of Myers-Briggs, does it sound more perceptive or judging, to you, when read aloud? To me it sounds judging, as if Coraline already has pre-conceived notions about the person she is communicating with. At the very least, it sounds unnecessarily defensive. The wording is definite, with no room for discussion. In fact, all I see in that wording is a mini "well, actually" lecture. The reality is that she doesn't know if this was an intentional or unintentional oversight. People leave things out, forget to finish sentences, paint in broad strokes and fine-tune later. From the description, this likely wasn't in its final stages. Maybe it was going to get changed, or maybe it wasn't, but you need to start from the idea that the person on the other end of the sentence also wants the best results. It's a nice idea to think that people should say whatever they want as long as it's the objective truth, but humans are humans, which means they are subjective and have feelings. I find that people are much more effective workers when they are attentive to the feelings of others. Another phrasing which is probably just as effective, much less aggressive, and only slightly more wordy: "Have you considered how people of different gender identities might engage with this question? Transgender people might be confused if they identify as both male (or female) and trans. Perhaps we can find a way to make this question a little less ambiguous for this class of people?" Sure, the proposed solution is not directly in that sentence-- but that's kind of the point. You have to get on the same page before you start throwing out answers at people. Maybe the data scientist already knows this but just didn't communicate effectively-- otherwise you end up dangerously close to "well actually"ing someone who already knows the thing you're telling them. In fact, to me, the weirdest part of the article is how ironic it is to see Coraline be so obtusely unaware of how unempathetic this kind of phrasing is, since she is so vocal about it on Twitter. It definitely strikes me as slightly hypocritical to see people arguing that we should be allowed to get straight to the point of a technical argument without any fluff or nicety. I believe this was the exact opposite argument being made from the same camp when Code of Conduct discussions were being had.
- StrangeOrange 9y ago
  This tone is so bloody fake and would make me lose all respect for the person sending it. There's treating someone respectfully and there's talking to them like they're a child. The fact that Silicon Valley is promoting this method of communication is just ridiculous. How about we concentrate more on getting things done and less on so much sugar-coating that we all get diabetes.
  - searine 9y ago
    A Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
  - krylon 9y ago
    In school, we once read a brief essay by German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer on politeness. Back then, I found Schopenhauer's tone incredibly pompous and condescending, but over the years I have come to appreciate it as one of the best explanations of what function politeness plays in social interaction: "It is a wise thing to be polite; consequently, it is a stupid thing to be rude. To make enemies by unnecessary and willful incivility, is just as insane a proceeding as to set your house on fire. For politeness is like a counter--an avowedly false coin, with which it is foolish to be stingy." What Schopenhauer says is that all politeness carries with it at least a kernel of insincerity, but that this is not a bad thing, quite the opposite - once we get past the idea that politeness is "phony", we can throw it around generously, and discover how much easier we get along with people we may not like very much. Consider politeness a kind of WD-40 for social interactions. > so much sugar-coating that we all get diabetes. I love the way you phrased that!
overgard 9y ago
Its the terseness -- I think its ok to be terse with people you know, but in a context where you're interacting with someone who doesnt know you well, manners can be pretty important for relaying that you're on the same team. Directness can come across as aggressive when you cant see a persons expression or hear their tone. Especially if its a sensitive subject.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  I just got reported to HR because I told somebody that a component they developed for us was badly designed. Turns out everybody agreed and it was changed but I still have to deal with HR. Being ultra sensitive keeps people around you on their toes and makes them think twice about everything they say. I think running to a manager and complaining about being offended is the new way of bullying people.

specialist 9y ago

"Hi cholantesh! Just saw your new survey. Looks great! Hey, have you seen the HRC's recommendations for surveying gender? I've used their guidelines in the past. Very helpful! http://www.hrc.org/resources/collecting-transgender-inclusive-gender-data-in-workplace-and-other-surveys http://www.hrc.org/resources/collecting-transgender-inclusiv... TLDR: They suggest splitting the gender question into two parts. As you know, this is a super important issue for me. Progress! Exciting! If you're busy, I'll make a pull request. Please let me know if I can help in any way. Thank you, Specialist"

cholantesh 9y ago
Whoa, those exclamation marks woke me right up from my midafternoon coma haha. Thanks for this, I'll keep this kind of tone in mind.
gxespino 9y ago
Why thank you for that clarification! I'm quite busy but can definitely submit a PR within the next few days. Feel free to do it first and I'll take a look, though. :)
- StrangeOrange 9y ago
  Have you guys ever heard of Victorian England? Because that's where you're headed with this kind of language. I can't wait until we all start wearing thick, black, woollen coats in the summertime...
  - gxespino 9y ago
    Idk. Every time I've wanted something done, this sort of language usually resulted in better outcomes as opposed to being direct, especially when communicating with someone I don't know very well, or a superior.
nojvek 9y ago
Why so much sugarcoating? Feedback was straightforward. I didn't see any aggressive words. Most of out PRs are to the point. Sometimes the big problem I find is that in some companies people are just scared of each other that they fail to communicate. Best places where I worked: people were to the point, they had healthy debates even with strong opinions.
- 6nf 9y ago
  Some people need the sugar, some do not. It's not always easy to work out which is which so you may need to err on the side of caution until you know your co-workers better.
- HelloWorldInWS 9y ago
  > Why so much sugarcoating? Because empathy is important to communicating effectively. You're looking at the words, but you're not looking at phrasing and tone, which are just as important. Try this exercise: read the sentence out loud to yourself. Taking a line out of Myers-Briggs, does it sound more perceptive or judging, to you, when read aloud? To me it sounds judging, as if Coraline already has pre-conceived notions about the person she is communicating with. At the very least, it sounds unnecessarily defensive. The wording is definite, with no room for discussion. In fact, all I see in that wording is a mini "well, actually" lecture. The reality is that she doesn't know if this was an intentional or unintentional oversight. People leave things out, forget to finish sentences, paint in broad strokes and fine-tune later. From the description, this likely wasn't in its final stages. Maybe it was going to get changed, or maybe it wasn't, but you need to start from the idea that the person on the other end of the sentence also wants the best results. It's a nice idea to think that people should say whatever they want as long as it's the objective truth, but humans are humans, which means they are subjective and have feelings. I find that people are much more effective workers when they are attentive to the feelings of others. Another phrasing which is probably just as effective, much less aggressive, and only slightly more wordy: "Have you considered how people of different gender identities might engage with this question? Transgender people might be confused if they identify as both male (or female) and trans. Perhaps we can find a way to make this question a little less ambiguous for this class of people?" Sure, the proposed solution is not directly in that sentence-- but that's kind of the point. You have to get on the same page before you start throwing out answers at people. Maybe the data scientist already knows this but just didn't communicate effectively-- otherwise you end up dangerously close to "well actually"ing someone who already knows the thing you're telling them. In fact, to me, the weirdest part of the article is how ironic it is to see Coraline be so obtusely unaware of how unempathetic this kind of phrasing is, since she is so vocal about it on Twitter. It definitely strikes me as slightly hypocritical to see people arguing that we should be allowed to get straight to the point of a technical argument without any fluff or nicety. I believe this was the exact opposite argument being made from the same camp when Code of Conduct discussions were being had.
StrangeOrange 9y ago
This tone is so bloody fake and would make me lose all respect for the person sending it. There's treating someone respectfully and there's talking to them like they're a child. The fact that Silicon Valley is promoting this method of communication is just ridiculous. How about we concentrate more on getting things done and less on so much sugar-coating that we all get diabetes.
- searine 9y ago
  A Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
- krylon 9y ago
  In school, we once read a brief essay by German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer on politeness. Back then, I found Schopenhauer's tone incredibly pompous and condescending, but over the years I have come to appreciate it as one of the best explanations of what function politeness plays in social interaction: "It is a wise thing to be polite; consequently, it is a stupid thing to be rude. To make enemies by unnecessary and willful incivility, is just as insane a proceeding as to set your house on fire. For politeness is like a counter--an avowedly false coin, with which it is foolish to be stingy." What Schopenhauer says is that all politeness carries with it at least a kernel of insincerity, but that this is not a bad thing, quite the opposite - once we get past the idea that politeness is "phony", we can throw it around generously, and discover how much easier we get along with people we may not like very much. Consider politeness a kind of WD-40 for social interactions. > so much sugar-coating that we all get diabetes. I love the way you phrased that!

overgard 9y ago

Its the terseness -- I think its ok to be terse with people you know, but in a context where you're interacting with someone who doesnt know you well, manners can be pretty important for relaying that you're on the same team. Directness can come across as aggressive when you cant see a persons expression or hear their tone. Especially if its a sensitive subject.

maxxxxx 9y ago
I just got reported to HR because I told somebody that a component they developed for us was badly designed. Turns out everybody agreed and it was changed but I still have to deal with HR. Being ultra sensitive keeps people around you on their toes and makes them think twice about everything they say. I think running to a manager and complaining about being offended is the new way of bullying people.