9 ms·

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I

by meej 9y ago

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly never considered that anyone might want to opt out.) Despite being only one of two women, both interns, on a team of 40 people, I never felt anything other than welcomed by my team and never felt singled out or harassed because of my gender. As such, I felt quite insulted by the assumption that I needed an "intern buddy" just because I'm a woman in a male-dominated field. A long email thread with the head of the organization ensued, and in the end I did not have the intern buddy that I never asked for in the first place. I wholeheartedly support the self-organization of underrepresented groups to create safe spaces. However, when participation in such efforts is compelled by things like special awards for members of underrepresented groups in tech or being assigned an "intern buddy" without your knowledge or consent just because you are a member of an underrepresented group, that's not a safe space. That's a ghetto.

zjaffee 9y ago
The one advantage I see beyond the traditional self-organization of various diversity groups is that an ERG can do a lot with a non zero amount of money, and influence within the recruiting department. Forced participation is never a good thing when it comes to this type of stuff, but to have the money to send those who do wish to participate to events that help those who feel excluded, to feel included is certainly valuable in its own way.
- bjt 9y ago
  What's an ERG? Google isn't showing me any meanings that would make sense in this context.
  - greenleafjacob 9y ago
    Employee Resource Group
- meej 9y ago
  I agree.
tomc1985 9y ago
Thank you for helping me find the right word to describe what most of these diversity, minority outreach programs look like -- ghettoization. It seems that many are more interested in highlighting the presence of minorities in their midst than actually rethinking their conduct. It makes most of the initiatives and discussions here on HN look like a sham. If I were an affected minority (I am a minority but not in any of the ways that are currently fashionable) I would not want to be highlighted because I am a minority. That is treating people like they are animals in a zoo. What I would want to see is people like me quietly working in their field and really, truly appearing (and being) equal to their peers. Which is amazing, in a way, that that even needs to be specified. That the majority is so incapable of empathizing with their peers and it seems the only visible response is to highlight "diversity" by pointing to diversity hires. Gag -- WASPs :/
- atom-morgan 9y ago
  > I would not want to be highlighted because I am a minority. I feel the exact same way. Unfortunately, my opinion is often dismissed on this issue because I'm half white or my minority representation isn't underrepresented enough. Meanwhile many people in tech, specifically women and URMs, who have spent so much time focusing on them being a women or URM in tech are now upset that they're being viewed as just that.
jxramos 9y ago
Her follow up sentence... "You’re also indicating that “this is a women’s problem, best solved by women” but that deepens the divide, creating an “us” and a “them”. Just based on gender…" I also find just as provocative. She's flipping the narrative very effectively with these short punchy hard to miss articulations. I remember feeling taken for granted with some other special help recruitment Facebook dished out for seemingly unrepresented groups. It was totally not my thing and turned out to sour my impression of the company.
Software_Sucks 9y ago
Two words. Virtue signalling. Thats all that it boils down to.
unidentified103 9y ago
I don't quite understand how a corporate policy like an "intern buddy" can be compared to a ghetto or even how it remotely hurts you in the same way that an unspoken "boys club" office setting would. A corporate policy like that is pretty clearly an impersonal management-type fluff program that does not solve every problem that could possibly arise from sexism, but that serves a resource for a few people desperately in need of it (and pretending that there are not people desperately in need of it is part of the problem). Furthermore, refusing to participate in a program that could give you connections and special insight out of some misguided principle that we must maintain the appearance that everyone is treated equally is very strange to me. While you were refusing assistance out of principle, your colleagues were offered opportunities, encouraged into management, etc. at varying rates based on process that can in no way be described as meritocratic.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  The mere offering of assistance to people who do not need it, and feel they should not need it, can be construed as insulting. EDIT: As mentioned to in another comment, "Special treatment feels condescending."
  - unidentified103 9y ago
    Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto? Is your pride really so hurt that someone wanted to help you out around the office that you refuse to believe that you could have learned anything useful from it? You can't even come out of it with another friend, a future business contact, an interpersonal skill, deeper knowledge of a workplace tool? It's great if some people don't think they need help overcoming sexist barriers in the office, some people do. No need to over-complicate it.
    - abduhl 9y ago
      Aren't your posts here telling the GP how important and useful a specific group for females is despite them explaining why they didn't want want to be a part of it a form of mansplaining?
fromo 9y ago
I can sort of see your point. If you're 2 women out of 40 people chances are you already have enough of a thick skin and drive to find the environment comfortable and not wanting any help. At the same time I bet that if this was offered to, at least some of, the men I've worked with it would take two weeks until everyone was informed of how important the program was for the organisation. While in reality they would use it to create informal networks within the same to further their own careers. Few of them would ever admit being singled out for any other reason than being an exceptional asset to the people around them. A fact that preferably would be indicated by their salary. I can definitely see how getting special attention could be annoying. But at some point loudly objecting about something because it's only for women becomes not so flattering for women as a group.
paulddraper 9y ago
The females in tech I know want maternity/paternity leave, respect, good work/life balance, a culture that values intelligent discussion, and fair salaries. You know, the stuff that most men want too.
tuna-piano 9y ago
I was on a United flight a year or two ago, and before the flight they showed a video that was all female United employees talking about how United cared about women, and how women at United were pilots, and women were maintenance people, and how women made United work! If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to see that video. I think I would literally cover her eyes and ears. Sure, it's helpful for a little girl to know that there are female pilots. But I think that a kid seeing that kind of propaganda just helps build a complex for thinking women are less than men and need to make videos like that. I'm a short guy, within the bottom few percentile of male height in the US. Being this short has been highly correlated with decreased wages and significant decreases in attractiveness. Can you imagine a video with a lot of short people saying "X company values short people. You short people can do whatever you want. Us short people are strong together. See, short people can become executives!" Makes me sick just thinking about it. How do any women at all support this kind of thing?
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  That is a really interesting comparison. I never thought of that. I'm white and male and live in the US. But I am also short and suddenly understood things a different way, reading what you wrote.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
kaosjester 9y ago
My wife got angry quite a few times in graduate school because the university's Women in Computing group forcibly signed her up to their mailing list at the start of every academic year. She unsubscribed every year and, without fail, they silently added her back. Apparently they thought a woman in computing couldn't manage without being part of this group! It's one thing to give people the space and support they ask for. It's quite another to shove space and support, unsolicited, upon them.

by meej 9y ago

zjaffee 9y ago

The one advantage I see beyond the traditional self-organization of various diversity groups is that an ERG can do a lot with a non zero amount of money, and influence within the recruiting department. Forced participation is never a good thing when it comes to this type of stuff, but to have the money to send those who do wish to participate to events that help those who feel excluded, to feel included is certainly valuable in its own way.

bjt 9y ago
What's an ERG? Google isn't showing me any meanings that would make sense in this context.
- greenleafjacob 9y ago
  Employee Resource Group
meej 9y ago
I agree.

tomc1985 9y ago

Thank you for helping me find the right word to describe what most of these diversity, minority outreach programs look like -- ghettoization. It seems that many are more interested in highlighting the presence of minorities in their midst than actually rethinking their conduct. It makes most of the initiatives and discussions here on HN look like a sham. If I were an affected minority (I am a minority but not in any of the ways that are currently fashionable) I would not want to be highlighted because I am a minority. That is treating people like they are animals in a zoo. What I would want to see is people like me quietly working in their field and really, truly appearing (and being) equal to their peers. Which is amazing, in a way, that that even needs to be specified. That the majority is so incapable of empathizing with their peers and it seems the only visible response is to highlight "diversity" by pointing to diversity hires. Gag -- WASPs :/

atom-morgan 9y ago
> I would not want to be highlighted because I am a minority. I feel the exact same way. Unfortunately, my opinion is often dismissed on this issue because I'm half white or my minority representation isn't underrepresented enough. Meanwhile many people in tech, specifically women and URMs, who have spent so much time focusing on them being a women or URM in tech are now upset that they're being viewed as just that.

jxramos 9y ago

Her follow up sentence... "You’re also indicating that “this is a women’s problem, best solved by women” but that deepens the divide, creating an “us” and a “them”. Just based on gender…" I also find just as provocative. She's flipping the narrative very effectively with these short punchy hard to miss articulations. I remember feeling taken for granted with some other special help recruitment Facebook dished out for seemingly unrepresented groups. It was totally not my thing and turned out to sour my impression of the company.

Software_Sucks 9y ago

Two words. Virtue signalling. Thats all that it boils down to.

unidentified103 9y ago

I don't quite understand how a corporate policy like an "intern buddy" can be compared to a ghetto or even how it remotely hurts you in the same way that an unspoken "boys club" office setting would. A corporate policy like that is pretty clearly an impersonal management-type fluff program that does not solve every problem that could possibly arise from sexism, but that serves a resource for a few people desperately in need of it (and pretending that there are not people desperately in need of it is part of the problem). Furthermore, refusing to participate in a program that could give you connections and special insight out of some misguided principle that we must maintain the appearance that everyone is treated equally is very strange to me. While you were refusing assistance out of principle, your colleagues were offered opportunities, encouraged into management, etc. at varying rates based on process that can in no way be described as meritocratic.

tomc1985 9y ago
The mere offering of assistance to people who do not need it, and feel they should not need it, can be construed as insulting. EDIT: As mentioned to in another comment, "Special treatment feels condescending."
- unidentified103 9y ago
  Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto? Is your pride really so hurt that someone wanted to help you out around the office that you refuse to believe that you could have learned anything useful from it? You can't even come out of it with another friend, a future business contact, an interpersonal skill, deeper knowledge of a workplace tool? It's great if some people don't think they need help overcoming sexist barriers in the office, some people do. No need to over-complicate it.
  - abduhl 9y ago
    Aren't your posts here telling the GP how important and useful a specific group for females is despite them explaining why they didn't want want to be a part of it a form of mansplaining?

fromo 9y ago

I can sort of see your point. If you're 2 women out of 40 people chances are you already have enough of a thick skin and drive to find the environment comfortable and not wanting any help. At the same time I bet that if this was offered to, at least some of, the men I've worked with it would take two weeks until everyone was informed of how important the program was for the organisation. While in reality they would use it to create informal networks within the same to further their own careers. Few of them would ever admit being singled out for any other reason than being an exceptional asset to the people around them. A fact that preferably would be indicated by their salary. I can definitely see how getting special attention could be annoying. But at some point loudly objecting about something because it's only for women becomes not so flattering for women as a group.

paulddraper 9y ago

The females in tech I know want maternity/paternity leave, respect, good work/life balance, a culture that values intelligent discussion, and fair salaries. You know, the stuff that most men want too.

tuna-piano 9y ago

I was on a United flight a year or two ago, and before the flight they showed a video that was all female United employees talking about how United cared about women, and how women at United were pilots, and women were maintenance people, and how women made United work! If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to see that video. I think I would literally cover her eyes and ears. Sure, it's helpful for a little girl to know that there are female pilots. But I think that a kid seeing that kind of propaganda just helps build a complex for thinking women are less than men and need to make videos like that. I'm a short guy, within the bottom few percentile of male height in the US. Being this short has been highly correlated with decreased wages and significant decreases in attractiveness. Can you imagine a video with a lot of short people saying "X company values short people. You short people can do whatever you want. Us short people are strong together. See, short people can become executives!" Makes me sick just thinking about it. How do any women at all support this kind of thing?

solidsnack9000 9y ago
That is a really interesting comparison. I never thought of that. I'm white and male and live in the US. But I am also short and suddenly understood things a different way, reading what you wrote.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

kaosjester 9y ago

My wife got angry quite a few times in graduate school because the university's Women in Computing group forcibly signed her up to their mailing list at the start of every academic year. She unsubscribed every year and, without fail, they silently added her back. Apparently they thought a woman in computing couldn't manage without being part of this group! It's one thing to give people the space and support they ask for. It's quite another to shove space and support, unsolicited, upon them.