7 ms·

Newbie question but what is China's rationale for their internet censorship and firewall? What are they afraid of?

melvinmt 9y ago
They've known for ages that the biggest threat to China is not some foreign enemy but China itself. This also applies to the US btw, we just haven't fully realized it yet.
shp0ngle 9y ago
You can't make socialism with too much freedom. People would look at homosexual stuff and wouldn't go to party meetings.
- diggan 9y ago
  Eh? Don't think socialism is to blame here. Sweden, as an example, is a very socialist country and also with a high degree of freedom to look at whatever you want (almost).
  - kristofferR 9y ago
    Sweden isn't socialist at all, it's a social democracy. Social democracies do not aim at making means of production a common good.
    - j7ake 9y ago
      I think the confusion is that socialism is used to refer both the economic policies as well as political policies, which are actually orthogonal to each other.. In the case of China it is socialism in political policies but very capitalist in economic policies. Sweden is socialism in the economic sense but politically it values freedom much more than China , you will see this if you notice the differences in tax rates in Sweden vs China.
      - opportune 9y ago
        Socialism is about collective ownership of industry. It has nothing to do with tax rates. The source of this misconception is likely decades of misinformation spouted by ahem certain American political groups that wanted to keep taxes low.
        mistermann 9y ago
        I always thought that was communism.
        opportune 9y ago
        Communism can be considered a form of socialism. It's like socialism but with additional requirements. There are different interpretations of it (Leninism, Trotskyism, Maoism, etc.). What I would consider a "pure" definition of it would be socialism without the presence social classes, money, or the state (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism). This is necessarily much different from just socialism by itself.
      - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        My understanding is that although Sweden may have high tax rates, it on the other hand has a more-free market than the US. Hard to place Sweden on either side of the Capitalist/Socialist spectrum.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      By that token, china isn't socialist at all. It is an autocratic corporatist state that relies heavily on capitalism.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
odiroot 9y ago
They care about social harmony. Don't want to make people upset. That's the official version. It's most probably about rejecting the influences from the West, preservation of Chinese culture. Recently there's also quite a huge war on influence of Korean culture.
- visarga 9y ago
  Just as Fox News won't tell the truth, and hold on to their line even in the face of evidence, so do the Chinese. Most of us are guilty of not trying to be inclusive enough with other people and prefer to live in our little bubble. There is always a cost for that - just look at what happened in 2016-17.
  - cinquemb 9y ago
    I don't know, I think it might be more beneficial for those who can accurately observe the political cirque de jour in whatever locale (opposed to being caught up in it) to engage amongst themselves, than trying engage with those who belief systems are dominated by a particular local/flavor (unless such engagement is exploiting another particulars beliefs against another for some gain). Said another way a bit more reductionist, it seems that any engagement between CNN vs Fox types is rather marginal (for expected outcomes), vs playing both sides and exploiting the cognitive dissonance/norms differential between the two. I think this chapter in human nature could be described as a conundrum that arises from the allegory of the cave.
  - odiroot 9y ago
    Don't make it unnecessarily partisan. I have no beef in this fight, not being an American, but I see the same behaviour from Fox, CNN (probably the biggest offender), MSNBC, Breitbart and sometimes even BBC.
netcan 9y ago
The concept they use is “social harmony.” This is a sort of shorthand for discouraging people from developing strong, dissident, aberrant or divisive political positions. Discouraging people from taking on political identities in general, other than a unified chinese identity. Discouraging people from disparaging and/or distrusting the government. Keeping fringey social trends out of the mainstream. If you think of how strong political identities are currently in the US, this is exactly what they are trying to prevent. They want to keep everyone on the same page in terms of political and social norms. The skeptical take is that the CCP is protecting itself from popular and democratic revolutionary movements.
- mistermann 9y ago
  It doesn't seem like a crazy idea to me at all. Nationalism and solidarity among citizens has always been a great source of unity in countries, but in the last decade or so it seems to become interpreted as a cardinal sin, and has has split several countries down the middle. If I was leading China I'd most definitely want to keep this sort of bizarre thinking out of my country.
  - netcan 9y ago
    I didn’t mean that literally. The biggest idea that the CCP specifically wants kept out of China is open elections. Anti-nationalism is not really on the radar, and the CCP itself has some anti-nationalist roots from its Marxist heritage.
    - mistermann 9y ago
      Anti-nationalism is synonymous with Nazism with many people in the west, and the west sets many cultural trends, I think it is perfectly reasonable for Chinese leadership to be cautious.
      - siidooloo 9y ago
        ? How is anti-nationalism synonymous with Nazism? The Nazis were the exact opposite. They were ultra-nationalists.
Baeocystin 9y ago
>What are they afraid of? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation
coldtea 9y ago
>Newbie question but what is China's rationale for their internet censorship and firewall? What are they afraid of? Aside from the CCP wanting to maintain its control in-land, there's this little real issue, that 80% the internet is mostly controlled from a handful of companies, all in the hands of foreign nationals (who are all "patriotic" and all reside in countries other than China). That is, things like search, social media, etc services are not a neutral international ground, but mostly dominated by a single country's companies. Those foreign countries get to siphon the data, dictate what's acceptable, promote their culture, viewpoints and national interests 24/7, censor or bury what they don't like, etc. So, while lesser countries might bend over and take it, it makes sense for a country that is a superpower in itself, and has billions of people, to take control of its own web and have its own search, social media, etc -- orthogonally to if they censor them or not. Ask yourselves: if Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft where e.g. Russian or Chinese, would the US (as a state and as citizens) be using them them all the same?
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  It is not just the foreign aspect. China government will shut down private Chinese actors who voice opinions or provide an independent platform which goes against the party line.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Sure, but my point was more about why any, even a totally democratic national government, might want to control those things, not just China.
- pizzetta 9y ago
  I think the Answer is yes. We had no issue with Nokia or Toyota. We consume Anime. Lots of companies use Kaspersky despite apparent ties to RU intelligence services. There is some talk of the DoD pulling out from a contract --but that's DoD and I imagine Chinese version of DoD would do something similar.
  - coldtea 9y ago
chibg10 9y ago
The CCP is the only political party in China and is willing to do whatever it takes to keep it that way. The CCP is also known for abducting journalists for reporting on "rumors" (i.e. reporting on stuff the CCP doesn't like), the Tiananmen Square massacre, hiring an army of paid internet trolls to advance the party line on domestic and foreign websites, and trying to set up an Orwellian "social credit" system where things like support for the party line affect whether you can take out a loan from the bank or use the public transit system. I could go on but I think you get the point. EDIT: Not sure why I'm being downvoted, everything I mentioned has been widely reported on and can be confirmed in ten seconds with a Google search.

They've known for ages that the biggest threat to China is not some foreign enemy but China itself. This also applies to the US btw, we just haven't fully realized it yet.

shp0ngle 9y ago

You can't make socialism with too much freedom. People would look at homosexual stuff and wouldn't go to party meetings.

diggan 9y ago
Eh? Don't think socialism is to blame here. Sweden, as an example, is a very socialist country and also with a high degree of freedom to look at whatever you want (almost).
- kristofferR 9y ago
  Sweden isn't socialist at all, it's a social democracy. Social democracies do not aim at making means of production a common good.
  - j7ake 9y ago
    I think the confusion is that socialism is used to refer both the economic policies as well as political policies, which are actually orthogonal to each other.. In the case of China it is socialism in political policies but very capitalist in economic policies. Sweden is socialism in the economic sense but politically it values freedom much more than China , you will see this if you notice the differences in tax rates in Sweden vs China.
    - opportune 9y ago
      Socialism is about collective ownership of industry. It has nothing to do with tax rates. The source of this misconception is likely decades of misinformation spouted by ahem certain American political groups that wanted to keep taxes low.
      - mistermann 9y ago
        I always thought that was communism.
        opportune 9y ago
        Communism can be considered a form of socialism. It's like socialism but with additional requirements. There are different interpretations of it (Leninism, Trotskyism, Maoism, etc.). What I would consider a "pure" definition of it would be socialism without the presence social classes, money, or the state (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism). This is necessarily much different from just socialism by itself.
    - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
      My understanding is that although Sweden may have high tax rates, it on the other hand has a more-free market than the US. Hard to place Sweden on either side of the Capitalist/Socialist spectrum.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    By that token, china isn't socialist at all. It is an autocratic corporatist state that relies heavily on capitalism.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

odiroot 9y ago

They care about social harmony. Don't want to make people upset. That's the official version. It's most probably about rejecting the influences from the West, preservation of Chinese culture. Recently there's also quite a huge war on influence of Korean culture.

visarga 9y ago
Just as Fox News won't tell the truth, and hold on to their line even in the face of evidence, so do the Chinese. Most of us are guilty of not trying to be inclusive enough with other people and prefer to live in our little bubble. There is always a cost for that - just look at what happened in 2016-17.
- cinquemb 9y ago
  I don't know, I think it might be more beneficial for those who can accurately observe the political cirque de jour in whatever locale (opposed to being caught up in it) to engage amongst themselves, than trying engage with those who belief systems are dominated by a particular local/flavor (unless such engagement is exploiting another particulars beliefs against another for some gain). Said another way a bit more reductionist, it seems that any engagement between CNN vs Fox types is rather marginal (for expected outcomes), vs playing both sides and exploiting the cognitive dissonance/norms differential between the two. I think this chapter in human nature could be described as a conundrum that arises from the allegory of the cave.
- odiroot 9y ago
  Don't make it unnecessarily partisan. I have no beef in this fight, not being an American, but I see the same behaviour from Fox, CNN (probably the biggest offender), MSNBC, Breitbart and sometimes even BBC.

netcan 9y ago

The concept they use is “social harmony.” This is a sort of shorthand for discouraging people from developing strong, dissident, aberrant or divisive political positions. Discouraging people from taking on political identities in general, other than a unified chinese identity. Discouraging people from disparaging and/or distrusting the government. Keeping fringey social trends out of the mainstream. If you think of how strong political identities are currently in the US, this is exactly what they are trying to prevent. They want to keep everyone on the same page in terms of political and social norms. The skeptical take is that the CCP is protecting itself from popular and democratic revolutionary movements.

mistermann 9y ago
It doesn't seem like a crazy idea to me at all. Nationalism and solidarity among citizens has always been a great source of unity in countries, but in the last decade or so it seems to become interpreted as a cardinal sin, and has has split several countries down the middle. If I was leading China I'd most definitely want to keep this sort of bizarre thinking out of my country.
- netcan 9y ago
  I didn’t mean that literally. The biggest idea that the CCP specifically wants kept out of China is open elections. Anti-nationalism is not really on the radar, and the CCP itself has some anti-nationalist roots from its Marxist heritage.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Anti-nationalism is synonymous with Nazism with many people in the west, and the west sets many cultural trends, I think it is perfectly reasonable for Chinese leadership to be cautious.
    - siidooloo 9y ago
      ? How is anti-nationalism synonymous with Nazism? The Nazis were the exact opposite. They were ultra-nationalists.

Baeocystin 9y ago

>What are they afraid of? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation

coldtea 9y ago

>Newbie question but what is China's rationale for their internet censorship and firewall? What are they afraid of? Aside from the CCP wanting to maintain its control in-land, there's this little real issue, that 80% the internet is mostly controlled from a handful of companies, all in the hands of foreign nationals (who are all "patriotic" and all reside in countries other than China). That is, things like search, social media, etc services are not a neutral international ground, but mostly dominated by a single country's companies. Those foreign countries get to siphon the data, dictate what's acceptable, promote their culture, viewpoints and national interests 24/7, censor or bury what they don't like, etc. So, while lesser countries might bend over and take it, it makes sense for a country that is a superpower in itself, and has billions of people, to take control of its own web and have its own search, social media, etc -- orthogonally to if they censor them or not. Ask yourselves: if Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft where e.g. Russian or Chinese, would the US (as a state and as citizens) be using them them all the same?

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
It is not just the foreign aspect. China government will shut down private Chinese actors who voice opinions or provide an independent platform which goes against the party line.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Sure, but my point was more about why any, even a totally democratic national government, might want to control those things, not just China.
pizzetta 9y ago
I think the Answer is yes. We had no issue with Nokia or Toyota. We consume Anime. Lots of companies use Kaspersky despite apparent ties to RU intelligence services. There is some talk of the DoD pulling out from a contract --but that's DoD and I imagine Chinese version of DoD would do something similar.
- coldtea 9y ago

chibg10 9y ago

The CCP is the only political party in China and is willing to do whatever it takes to keep it that way. The CCP is also known for abducting journalists for reporting on "rumors" (i.e. reporting on stuff the CCP doesn't like), the Tiananmen Square massacre, hiring an army of paid internet trolls to advance the party line on domestic and foreign websites, and trying to set up an Orwellian "social credit" system where things like support for the party line affect whether you can take out a loan from the bank or use the public transit system. I could go on but I think you get the point. EDIT: Not sure why I'm being downvoted, everything I mentioned has been widely reported on and can be confirmed in ten seconds with a Google search.