3 ms·

Change your standards (really). In my experience with start ups, developers rarely come in early. Some of the best developers I work with come in at lunch. Thi

by alttab 16y ago

Change your standards (really). In my experience with start ups, developers rarely come in early. Some of the best developers I work with come in at lunch. This is because they are night owls and work better at night. Not understanding that pure-bread developers work differently is denying the basis of your product. It sounds like, on a personal level, that you want your co-founder (who is technical) to be more like you. Well sorry, that's not going to happen. You need to understand that you wanted to work with him in the first place because of who he is and what he is capable of, not what time he gets up in the morning. As a little background, I am a developer. I do however, wake up at 6:30, and I'm at my desk at 7:50am. This is before any other developer (and more times than not before anyone else has even shown up). I'm not like most developers, this is my personal choice, and I understand that. Demoralizing him and berating him will further his cause to be dissonant to "business." This includes coming in later and later over time, not wearing "professional" clothes, or being hard to work with. My heart-felt advice is to apologize for being a prick to someone so important to your product, your business, and your success, and set a road map for increasing co-founder communication and understanding. You chose him because he was different. If he had the same skills as you, you wouldn't need him. So first apologize to yourself, forgive yourself for being close-minded. Then apologize to him, and the interns. It takes a big person to be able to do that. It won't be fun. Then have a candid, non-confrontational conversation with him. Figure out where the communication ended (I guarantee this is your issue). Remember, you're in this together. If he doesn't come in early enough for calls or presentation, do it without him. Ask him to give you the materials or knowledge you need to do it well. Maybe do some of the things you think he should. Try to help him do his job better, which may not be looking professional, having sane work hours, etc. If hes an engineer or developer, his job is probably building the product. You may be surprised that the cool helpful guy you met is actually still there.

messel 16y ago
Pro advice to the author, I was thinking along these same lines (communication, not scheduling is the problem). Keep focused less on what hour in the morning your cofounder shows up, and more on deadlines that you're working to. Most importantly as the business guy focus on how the shifting market perceives each of your product/feature releases.
joe_the_user 16y ago
Amazingly good advice from the parent. Remember, this is someone you are intending to go a long way with. Either find a way to work easily and smoothly with him now or get out now. Things will get harder and more tense before they get easier.
rokhayakebe 16y ago
One of the best advises I have read. You should elaborate on this. Maybe as a blog post. I think it applies to most jobs where you do not have to deal with the customers in real time. Many managers could learn a thing or two from your comment.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
acid_bath 16y ago
EDIT: followup - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1469271 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1469271 Old post: I think the OP should be thankful his dev doesn't walk. If I partnered up with some biz guy who demanded I show up early for no other reason than appearance I'd assume he's an empty suit and leave. (9am is early in this industry, I've never had a job that demanded I show up before 10:00). OP: You're a 2.5 man closet startup and you're asking your other half to be less productive for the sake of appearance. Are you sure he's the one with the problem? All this talk of being "unprofessional" is a joke when it's two guys who just scrounged up enough capital to rent a cheap office trying to impress a fucking intern. Jesus Christ. On second thought, I'm certain I'd bail if the OP was my "partner." The lack of thought put into this, the fact that you've considered trying to oust him instead of confronting him, the fact that you seem to lack the ability to look at your company critically (again: 2 dudes and some interns == 9-5 IS NOT A BIG DEAL) all shows a severe lack of biz sense or even common sense. You're obviously insecure (cares too much about appearance to some teenagers), ill-informed (does not understand developers or managing developers) and not equipped for a leadership position (talking to HN instead of the one person in the company who he should be talking to). I hope the "partner" you're treating like an employee reads this thread and bails. You reached out to a forum instead of talking to someone who's your other half. I can't imagine how you'd run an actual company. It sounds harsh but it's a harsh industry.
- GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
  I've been in an interview where they bluntly said "8:30am - 6:00pm are the required hours minimum".
  - GFischer 16y ago
    But they were upfront about that. I "work" from 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m, but in fact I'm very unproductive, especially in the morning, and I get only a few blocks of 2-3 hrs where I am productive (maybe 5 out of the 10 hours total in a good day). I was a lot more productive with other time arrangements (and space, I'm in an open office with 7 other developers, which kills my chances of being "in the zone" unless I wear headphones).
danudey 16y ago
Seconded. I worked at a job where I typically came in around 10 AM, and all the developers rolled in around 11 onward (or worked from home, or worked odd hours, etc.). That was the way the company had been since I started there, and the only reason I came in so early (despite working late) was because, as the sysadmin, I had to be there for office problems and desktop support. Shortly after my supervisor left to move on to other projects, the guy promoted to take his place decided (or it was decided for him) that everyone should come in 'business hours' - i.e. show up at 9 AM. Suddenly, instead of being earlier than everyone else, getting work done, staying late, and then doing some work from home, I was getting lectured for being late every day. My reaction was simple. I started showing up between 9-10 as requested, and started leaving between 5-6, as was fair. Stuff stopped getting done, my mornings were completely unproductive and in my rush I often forgot to take my medications, resulting in nearly no work getting done at all. I was stressed in the morning from rushing to work (or from getting phone calls at 10:15 demanding to know where I was). Eventually, I was so drained that nothing that wasn't urgent got done at all. Projects dragged on, things stopped getting done. Since I hadn't taken a vacation in the year and a half I'd been there, I asked for my vacation pay to get paid out, so I could make some purchases - a new mattress to help me sleep better, a sun lamp to help me wake up, etc. Instead, I ended up in a passive-agressive back-and-forth with the CEO, who had retroactively decided that I'd taken too many (management-approved) sick days. At that point, I had no interest whatsoever in being productive. Eventually they let me go, citing 'insufficient work'. I took a month off, revitalized myself, and started a new job elsewhere. The company, meanwhile, continued to go downhill. The development team (including my supervisor) left to start a new company, contracting their services out. Their stock price was already in the toilet, so that hasn't changed, and they're selling off any assets they can to keep afloat. The moral of the story: if you try to force your techs to be 'professional' for no other reason than you believe that's how everyone should act, you'll ruin any goodwill you had with them, alienate them from yourself and the project, and doom your business to an early death.
timwiseman 16y ago
While I think this may be a bit harshly phrased, I agree with every sentiment expressed here. To add my own anecdote to it, for the past several years, I have worked odd hours. I have a family and I am going to grad school. I come in early most days, but then I leave for a long time in the middle of the day and come back and work late into the evening. If I fall behind in the week (or just have a lot going on), I come in on the weekend. This flexibility means I do not conform to most people's ideas of a normal work schedule, but it means I get to achieve my goals of taking care of my family properly and getting my masters, and this means I am more motivated to actually work for the ocmpany. Personally, if I were in a situation where I did not have flexibility to achieve those things, I would consider finding a different job.
yesimahuman 16y ago
While I agree with all of that, what about his obligation to help the interns? Working 5pm-1am isn't going to help the interns much. It sounds like the OP might have been raised with a certain style of work ethic. Measure your partner's success based on what he adds to the product and the success of your technical employees, and how well he enables you to go out and handle your side of the equation.
- dedward 16y ago
  Who decided on that obligation, and was it agreed to beforehand? Sounds like something the partners have to discuss and work out.
  - yesimahuman 16y ago
    I'm not assuming anything, I'm just curious if that is also part of the story.

by alttab 16y ago

messel 16y ago

Pro advice to the author, I was thinking along these same lines (communication, not scheduling is the problem). Keep focused less on what hour in the morning your cofounder shows up, and more on deadlines that you're working to. Most importantly as the business guy focus on how the shifting market perceives each of your product/feature releases.

joe_the_user 16y ago

Amazingly good advice from the parent. Remember, this is someone you are intending to go a long way with. Either find a way to work easily and smoothly with him now or get out now. Things will get harder and more tense before they get easier.

rokhayakebe 16y ago

One of the best advises I have read. You should elaborate on this. Maybe as a blog post. I think it applies to most jobs where you do not have to deal with the customers in real time. Many managers could learn a thing or two from your comment.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

acid_bath 16y ago

EDIT: followup - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1469271 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1469271 Old post: I think the OP should be thankful his dev doesn't walk. If I partnered up with some biz guy who demanded I show up early for no other reason than appearance I'd assume he's an empty suit and leave. (9am is early in this industry, I've never had a job that demanded I show up before 10:00). OP: You're a 2.5 man closet startup and you're asking your other half to be less productive for the sake of appearance. Are you sure he's the one with the problem? All this talk of being "unprofessional" is a joke when it's two guys who just scrounged up enough capital to rent a cheap office trying to impress a fucking intern. Jesus Christ. On second thought, I'm certain I'd bail if the OP was my "partner." The lack of thought put into this, the fact that you've considered trying to oust him instead of confronting him, the fact that you seem to lack the ability to look at your company critically (again: 2 dudes and some interns == 9-5 IS NOT A BIG DEAL) all shows a severe lack of biz sense or even common sense. You're obviously insecure (cares too much about appearance to some teenagers), ill-informed (does not understand developers or managing developers) and not equipped for a leadership position (talking to HN instead of the one person in the company who he should be talking to). I hope the "partner" you're treating like an employee reads this thread and bails. You reached out to a forum instead of talking to someone who's your other half. I can't imagine how you'd run an actual company. It sounds harsh but it's a harsh industry.

GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
I've been in an interview where they bluntly said "8:30am - 6:00pm are the required hours minimum".
- GFischer 16y ago
  But they were upfront about that. I "work" from 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m, but in fact I'm very unproductive, especially in the morning, and I get only a few blocks of 2-3 hrs where I am productive (maybe 5 out of the 10 hours total in a good day). I was a lot more productive with other time arrangements (and space, I'm in an open office with 7 other developers, which kills my chances of being "in the zone" unless I wear headphones).

danudey 16y ago

Seconded. I worked at a job where I typically came in around 10 AM, and all the developers rolled in around 11 onward (or worked from home, or worked odd hours, etc.). That was the way the company had been since I started there, and the only reason I came in so early (despite working late) was because, as the sysadmin, I had to be there for office problems and desktop support. Shortly after my supervisor left to move on to other projects, the guy promoted to take his place decided (or it was decided for him) that everyone should come in 'business hours' - i.e. show up at 9 AM. Suddenly, instead of being earlier than everyone else, getting work done, staying late, and then doing some work from home, I was getting lectured for being late every day. My reaction was simple. I started showing up between 9-10 as requested, and started leaving between 5-6, as was fair. Stuff stopped getting done, my mornings were completely unproductive and in my rush I often forgot to take my medications, resulting in nearly no work getting done at all. I was stressed in the morning from rushing to work (or from getting phone calls at 10:15 demanding to know where I was). Eventually, I was so drained that nothing that wasn't urgent got done at all. Projects dragged on, things stopped getting done. Since I hadn't taken a vacation in the year and a half I'd been there, I asked for my vacation pay to get paid out, so I could make some purchases - a new mattress to help me sleep better, a sun lamp to help me wake up, etc. Instead, I ended up in a passive-agressive back-and-forth with the CEO, who had retroactively decided that I'd taken too many (management-approved) sick days. At that point, I had no interest whatsoever in being productive. Eventually they let me go, citing 'insufficient work'. I took a month off, revitalized myself, and started a new job elsewhere. The company, meanwhile, continued to go downhill. The development team (including my supervisor) left to start a new company, contracting their services out. Their stock price was already in the toilet, so that hasn't changed, and they're selling off any assets they can to keep afloat. The moral of the story: if you try to force your techs to be 'professional' for no other reason than you believe that's how everyone should act, you'll ruin any goodwill you had with them, alienate them from yourself and the project, and doom your business to an early death.

timwiseman 16y ago

While I think this may be a bit harshly phrased, I agree with every sentiment expressed here. To add my own anecdote to it, for the past several years, I have worked odd hours. I have a family and I am going to grad school. I come in early most days, but then I leave for a long time in the middle of the day and come back and work late into the evening. If I fall behind in the week (or just have a lot going on), I come in on the weekend. This flexibility means I do not conform to most people's ideas of a normal work schedule, but it means I get to achieve my goals of taking care of my family properly and getting my masters, and this means I am more motivated to actually work for the ocmpany. Personally, if I were in a situation where I did not have flexibility to achieve those things, I would consider finding a different job.

yesimahuman 16y ago

While I agree with all of that, what about his obligation to help the interns? Working 5pm-1am isn't going to help the interns much. It sounds like the OP might have been raised with a certain style of work ethic. Measure your partner's success based on what he adds to the product and the success of your technical employees, and how well he enables you to go out and handle your side of the equation.

dedward 16y ago
Who decided on that obligation, and was it agreed to beforehand? Sounds like something the partners have to discuss and work out.
- yesimahuman 16y ago
  I'm not assuming anything, I'm just curious if that is also part of the story.