10 ms·

Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

105 points by TuringNYC 9y ago

homero 9y ago
I've never had that thought or known anyone else. What states are those? There's gotta be a major difference between areas. In my area, if anything, meeting with the opposite sex can insinuate something.
mc32 9y ago
What are people so uptight about? Not that I understand why, but it makes some sense if religious people are somehow shy to that, but atheists? Are people afraid of perception or afraid of misinterpretation or afraid physically, are there that many unhinged people out there? You can totally make friends with people of the same sex you are generally sexually attracted to and it does not mean or have to end up in a weird uncomfortable moment. Just be people. Think how you made friends pre-puberty. You just went and talked.
- cup 9y ago
  Theres a reason it was easier making friends pre-puberty.
  - tluyben2 9y ago
    Personal I guess but I see no difference in my life in that aspect between then and now.
- tluyben2 9y ago
  I am surprised about this as well: here (EU) people I know have no issues with this at all. Friends are both male and female, for my wife and me, and we meet, alone, with them often. Colleagues as well; I often have lunch/dinner/car rides alone with my colleagues of the opposite sex and never thought about this. They are colleagues and we are there to do a job. I have never, only for highschool teachers, heard anything different than this in NL: my parents did and do the same for instance.
  - roel_v 9y ago
    Probably in the group you hang around with, but you can't generalize that. There are definitely people in the Netherlands who will actively avoid situations where they are 1:1 with mixed genders, and not only in work settings. Since I have children, I meet much more people who are 'different' from my 'normal' crowd (which are successful university educated upper middle and upper class professionals) and I havr painfully felt this more than a handful of times the last two years - to the point where I've started to somewhat dread situations where this sort of awkwardness might happen. Additionally, and this is even worse, it is starting to reinforce some stereotypes in me, and is making me less tolerant of those who are uptight like that about it. And this is not something against muslims either; I've had muslim women excuse themselves from me and I just thought 'oh well, when in Rome, do like the Romans'. It's when people are more 'like me' and behave like this that I get annoyed and think less of them (and their background) for it. As bad as that is. (Edit: but what I hate even more is that this is making me adjust my own behavior as well. I start to feel 'uncomfortable' (oh what a horrible word) now in those situations because I realize others might be, and I certainly don't want others to feel like they somehow 'have' to be around me. I'm turning into a product of the society that produces millions of precious little snowflakes with the mental resilience and self-awareness of 2 years olds. I hope it's just part of the transition into being part of the 'old people'. At least that would make it 'normal'.)
    - tluyben2 9y ago
      You are right, cannot generalize. But as it's not a common subject in NL (we usually hear about things that actually happened like the Judo thing); I would find it horrible to have to be careful with everything I do because people might feel 'uncomfortable' (like you I do not like this word; I think uncomfortable is an indigestion type of thing). But this is not at all to belittle people who are generally threatened as yes, that happens, but 'we' (in NL) (and in UK I see it as well) do not have that feeling generally and that's better than this 'let's not go for a drink because I might end up fired'. It widens the gender gap considerably as well as you cannot treat others like equals. You would have that drink with a male colleague, alone etc. I went (as a white guy) to a mostly muslim highschool in Utrecht (Kanaleneiland in the 80s) and besides guns, knives and streets fights, this feeling wasn't there either. But real (in the much more than uncomfortable range) things ofcourse happened, it just didn't leave this kind paranoia behind. If paranoia at all.
- Spivak 9y ago
  I'll speak up with an example from a man's perspective; it has nothing to do with attraction or religion, it's just not worth the risk. If I'm one-on-one with a woman and a misunderstanding makes her feel uncomfortable or threatened and she accuses me of misconduct or sexual harassment I'm at an enormous disadvantage without any witnesses. When even being accused could be career ending it's best to bring someone else along. I have absolutely no problem going one-on-one with my friends who are women but I can't say the same for strictly co-workers.
  - mc32 9y ago
    I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false accusations.
    - Realist1337 9y ago
      >> People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. Sounds like you've already pre-inclined towards a guilty party then, before you even heard evidence from both sides. And if there is no evidence, the man is in a world of trouble. I have personally witnessed a man in the office be fired for "sexual harassment" shortly after escalating an accounting audit issue. Convenient timing and very effective way of dealing with an accounting issue.
      - mc32 9y ago
        I don't doubt that can happen --there are vindictive, retributive people out there. That kind of person would not need a 1:1 or drive home, etc., to bring forward an accusation.
        throwawayable 9y ago
- speedplane 9y ago
  It's not easy. Social relationships where there are strict rules of engagement (e.g., professional environments) and where the other person is different than you (e.g., power, sex, age, familial background, religion, etc.) can be extremely difficult to navigate. Dealing with these relationships isn't "natural," and going into it solely based on gut feeling often ends badly. The good news is that it can be taught and learned from experience, but sadly, many receive neither.
- jlos 9y ago
  It helps to understand features of conservative religious communities: 1) sex, marriage, and family are still inseparably linked and are believed to be foundational to life and human flourishing. Thus, breaking marital vows reflects a profound failure of character. 2) individuals within Convervative Christian have a deep mistrust of their own capacity to resist moral failures. From my conversations, the individual isn't avoiding awkward situations but fears that, should a mutual attraction develop, he would potentially lack the moral resolve to stay faithful. Interestingly enough, I've talked to a few conservative Christian counselors with 25+ years of counselling experience about this issue. They all responded that they actually felt more strongly than when they started counseling about avoiding circumstances that would allow romantic relationships to develop because they had seen so many people ruin their families, reputations, and careers this way. Outside Christian communities, sex, family, and marriage are not inherently related so the priorities seem bizarre or sexist. it largely boils down to a different understand of what it means to he human.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - learc83 9y ago
    From a quick google search surveys show that American's almost unanimously find cheating morally wrong, and 60% of all children in America are born to married parents. >Outside Christian communities, sex, family, and marriage are not inherently related I don't think you can say that at all. Looking at the marriage rates in looks like the majority of sex is probably happening in married relationships, even outside of conservative Christian communities. The average American may be OK with sex outside of marriage, but I think they're still pretty related in most people's minds.
cbanek 9y ago
I'm really amazed that the data is that close for "having a work meeting." (25% of women say inappropriate vs 22% of men) That's a lot higher than I was expecting. It makes me wonder why as well. Is it just "inappropriate" (what I imagine Mike Pence thinks)? Does one side think the other side is trying to do something inappropriate or is trying to lead into something? At least in many jobs I've had, 1:1's were basically required time (though, not usually productive time). It's crazy thinking so many working relationships people might be on edge or think of as inappropriate. Of course, the source of the data is "registered voters", not people who have jobs.
- meric 9y ago
  For the situations where the manager and the managed are of the opposite sex and one or both are aware of their own ethical and spiritual vulnerabilities maybe it'd be a good idea to have a 2:1 or 1:2 instead of a 1:1.
  - zdkl 9y ago
    And chaperons for teenagers! /s
    - seanp2k2 9y ago
      And yet most public schools (all?) in the US insist on chaperones for dances, anything overnight (where this isn't banned as it was in my district after 9/11...yep, no school-sponsored overnight trips (which includes any which involve travel, and air travel was separately banned) district-wide)), ski trips, whatever. "If you're not in sight of an adult, you're going to use that time to have sex and do drugs" seemed to be the mindset of the administration.
  - cbanek 9y ago
    I hope you're joking, but if you're not, that sounds like a horrible idea to me. Being a woman, and having had 1:1's with male managers for pretty much my entire tech career, I've never heard of this happening. I don't know what spiritual vulnerabilities you are talking about, but in terms of ethics if you can't work with a female employee, you shouldn't be a manager. You're basically telling the person that you can't trust them enough to be alone with and honestly communicate with them when times are good. What happens when things get difficult?
TuringNYC 9y ago
There are two factors at play here: 1. General religiously-driven norms, which are shifting in the US (e.g., VP Pence) 2. Concern, or overly-cautious / over-concern over what happened last week with Binary Capital. Clearly there is a middle ground between the frat-house that Binary Capital was and the monastery environment VP Pence might suggest.
dijit 9y ago
I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought and of course I would never do such a thing; but from a certain perspective it _could_ happen. The same way I could potentially say something deeply uncomfortable to them. So I would understand why females would not desire to be alone with males. Just my 2c EDIT: downvotes? Really? Remind me never to air my concerns in public again.
- eropple 9y ago
  I didn't downvote you, but your post is hyperbolic and creates barriers for women out of unrealized, unrealistic fear. In particular: > One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. This flies in the face of of...well, just about everything, in most industrialized countries. Serial sexual harassers get away with it for a long time and men who out-and-out assault women do to; somewhere almost certainly north of 50% (NARAL says 90%) of rapes go unreported and of those something like a quarter are ever brought to trial. Being fired--maybe--doesn't make your life "essentially over", and (in the US and the parts of Europe I'm familiar with) there's nothing that can be disclosed to a future employer to say "hey, that dude's a creep" without opening the former employer up to potential danger. And to be crystal clear, everything I just said is a bug, not a feature. Sexual predators in the workplace, most of whom are male, by and large get away with it. It's why the last couple weeks of dudes not getting away with it are so notable. Fearing the same is temporarily-embarrassed-millionaire silliness projected into a new realm, nothing more.
  - dijit 9y ago
    I get what you're saying. There are many examples of people doing shitty things and getting away with it; at the same time I work in Sweden; a country that has quite some sensitivity regarding what constitutes rape (strongly suggestive comments are legally rape). It _might_ slide off me if someone accused me of something. But I really wouldn't put that to the test; at the same time. If you can mitigate the risk then why wouldn't you? And again, the female perspective (that I could be abusive, hurtful or a rapist) is certainly enough to dissuade "alone time" for them, _especially_ if I, as a man, were able to get away with things like you were suggesting.
kwellington 9y ago
Here in Japan I regularly hear about women or families saying Japan isn't as safe as it appears. I never understood it, because the data doesn't back it up, and I've never experienced any trouble in nearly 5 years here. I don't have a TV. When I catch TV though, the news programs can harp on a minor crime here in Tokyo like a convenience store robbery for a good thiry minutes. These friends watch a lot of TV. I think media narratives drive these paranoias.
- 3131s 9y ago
  I live in Phnom Penh and I'd say the crime here is about as bad as an average larger American city, but in a different way. There is more petty crime, especially theft. I've lived here 4 years and never had any problem really, but I see visitors and expats alike getting robbed frequently. I've avoided it because I don't carry anything worth stealing and I am not the type of person that thieves target.
  - manmal 9y ago
    How do you avoid being the type of person a thief targets? Is it a brawny/threatening look, or just not using an iPhone in public?
    - mc32 9y ago
      Not the OP but when I'm overseas I try to blend in in terms of attire and so on (dress down and don't be flashy). I mean, dress like normal locals dress. Basically don't stick out as a shining target.
      - learc83 9y ago
        Doesn't work when you're 6'5" white guy traveling in most countries outside of North America and Europe.
        mercer 9y ago
        The 6'5" could be problematic, but as a very white guy I've had very positive experiences by just acting like I belong (acting slightly bored by everything around me while secretly enjoying the new sights, avoiding stops at subway maps and the like, dressing the part, etc.). Most places I've visited have at least enough white people for me to appear 'local poor expat', but I can see how being the only white or only really tall person throws a wrench into that approach.
deleted 9y ago
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cup 9y ago
Mike Pence, Americans and pretty much all of humanity up until the last two generations or so (in most cultures).
RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
Sex is one of the greatest things both now and in the past of bringing out stupid behavior in people. The number of people who have destroyed their wealth, jobs, and/or reputations is staggering. It is not just of matter of more training or consequences. Even with such punishment as being impaled alive http://www.executedtoday.com/2017/03/15/1718-stepan-glebov-lover-of-the-tsarina/ http://www.executedtoday.com/2017/03/15/1718-stepan-glebov-l... or with the threat of eternal damnation, people still had sexual relationships that were deemed illicit. I doubt our worst punishments will come anywhere close to that which was inflicted in the past, and if punishments and stigma in the past could not control sex, I doubt they will now. The underlying issue is that sex is driven by the limbic brain and is not entirely susceptible to reason. This is a hard problem and one that society will struggle with for a long time.
- avaer 9y ago
  There's hope that convincing simulation technology can remove other humans from the equation and keep the stupidity contained, the way we've done with other intoxicants. But that's a chicken and egg problem, because a prerequisite is getting society to accept it as ok to be sexually fulfilled by technology when your tastes are considered illicit. People still get sent to jail for having racy cartoons in some parts of the world.
- diminish 9y ago
  At some point if we can augment humans to separate reproduction from sex (act of sex), we can free sex from the 'heavy' meaning it receives in social contexts being the subject of so much drama and tragedy. When sex and reproduction divorces, we ll pave a new way for reproduction to be made more reasonably and sex to become more abundant - by implanting Krause bodies all around the human skin not only few current locations.
- lqdc13 9y ago
  As dumb as it is, it's also the only reason you are alive. Some people see their main goal in life as to find the best partner they can. Sex is closely related IMO.
  - 9y ago
aiyodev 9y ago
I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.
- cbanek 9y ago
  Why would a woman need to be alone with you? If someone wanted to, they could just fabricate it without being alone with you (since you said they need no evidence). On the flip side, as a woman I could say being alone with a man, he's stronger than me so he could kill or rape me whenever he wanted, so never be alone with a man?
- eulo__ 9y ago
  Such an irrational fear, like worrying about getting hit by lightning on the way to the shops. Also goodluck convincing anyone that I sexually assaulted someone. People wouldn't be able to take you seriously after a claim like that.
  - lqdc13 9y ago
    How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1]. That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year. [1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situation_en.pdf http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa...
    - eulo__ 9y ago
      I think if you're worried about woman calling you out for being a dick, you're probably worried because you're a dick to women. People aren't malicious in my experience unless you give them cause to be.
bambax 9y ago
> When he needs to meet with women at work or his church, he makes sure doors are left open and another person is present. Saint-Simon, the memorialist descibing life at the court of Louis XIV of France in the late 17th century, tells how, when the King had a meeting with his current mistress, he would leave all doors open so that no one would wonder about what was going on. The problem was, when the King met with other women (or men) he would have the doors closed, so the fact that the doors were open was a tell! ;-)
vacri 9y ago
Wasn't the problem less about his personal dining habits, and more about cutting off female lobbyists, given his role in politics? No-one cares if Bob down the road is uncomfortable eating 1:1 with a woman not his wife, because he's not a political powerbroker.
rufford 9y ago
It's a cultural issue with Americans. There seems to be a belief there that equality is not really equality but a battle of the genders imo. Women and men alike obsess over the differences and have very traditional dating structures/marriages. Gender equality in Europe makes the states look like a joke
- axaxs 9y ago
  Hit the nail on the head. Americans are in constant battle, whether sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. It's not as 'equal' as it seems, and if it is, it's because persons go out of their way to cater to those groups. It would be nicer just to see them no differently at all, but I digress.
  - throwaway688 9y ago
    > just to see them no differently at all I agree but you can't say this sentiment out loud in some US big tech companies. In fact, saying it out loud may lead to social outrage + job loss + career suicide. A closely related issue to the main one being discussed here.
- xiaoma 9y ago
  I've noticed a huge difference between China (and the greater Chinese speaking community throughout Asia) and the US, too. I also see a lot of hostility between the sexes in the US. Part of that is due to differences in how people use social media for public shaming and to share "outrage porn", but even in offline interactions there are just fundamentally different expectations. It's absolutely striking how few American couples pour their resources together and run a business together. There are still some family businesses, but it seems like most are run by immigrants. To me, it seems like such a natural thing to band together with and feel you are on a team with the person you've decided to spend your life with. Of course not everyone can be an entrepreneur, but it also looks uncommon in the US for people to significantly invest in their partner's careers either. The focus is more personal. Us vs them has some problems with nepotism and cases of corruption, but it does a lot better than "us vs us", IMO.
speedplane 9y ago
Two surprises about this article: 1 - 25% of women think it's inappropriate to have a work meeting with a man. 2 - 41% of men think it's appropriate to have a drink one-on-one with a women.
- swiley 9y ago
  Yeah the drink thing is definitely inappropriate.
  - speedplane 9y ago
    There are a lot of ways it could be made appropriate, e.g., group setting, a long work-history together, very equal power dynamic. But the idea of a superior bringing out a female for a drink one-on-one is almost certainly a recipe for disaster. Go for lunch, coffee, or a game of golf instead.
    - detaro 9y ago
      At least as it's presented in the article, the question wasn't about a superior or just a work colleague at all, but about any man/woman?
    - tluyben2 9y ago
      You are talking about a superior; then you have to be a bit more careful. What if equal colleagues? I cannot why that is a problem. It is just a drink.
      - speedplane 9y ago
        In theory, I agree, but in practice, no two are exactly equal. Even if they have the same title, some have more influence, connections, respect. And if it's just a drink, that's totally fine too. The concern is that if one, the other, or both become intoxicated, it may become more. The solution isn't hard, bring a buddy with you, or do something that doesn't involve drinking.
jlebar 9y ago
I wrote this when the Pence story broke in March. >>>>>>>>> I wanted to write this yesterday, but thankfully I didn't, because Jia Tolentino did a much better job than I would have in the New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/mike-pences-marriage-and-the-beliefs-that-keep-women-from-power http://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/mike-pences-m... What bothers me about Pence's "no meals alone with women who aren't my wife" and "no working late with female aides" rules isn't that he's trying to protect women from himself. He rightly understands that he's a powerful man, and many women have been harmed, sexually or otherwise, by people remarkably like him. Kudos to Mike Pence for getting that, even if he also doesn't get that many men have been harmed in just the same way. What bothers me is that he (apparently) pays no heed to the question of how to protect women from himself while still ensuring they can have equitable careers. "You go home, honey; Jack will stay and help me" is saying that women and men have different roles to play in Pence's staff, and that's quintessential sexism (and may be illegal). And as the article points out, "no successful woman could ever abide by [Pence's no-meals-alone rule]." Anyway this article frames the issue really well.
- speedplane 9y ago
  If it's done properly, there are alternatives. Instead of having drinks one-on-one, you invite a mutual friend, or you go for lunch, coffee, or a jog. I don't think these alternatives are natural to most people, but I do think they can be taught. In good organizations, they are.
learc83 9y ago
When I was in college I was a team lead at Best Buy for a while. I was in charge of a mostly female team of cashiers, and I was alone with them in the cash office frequently while they counted their tills. I made one of the cashiers mad by reprimanding her, and she decided to get back at me by claiming that I grabbed her and shook her while we were in the cash office. I never touched her, and luckily we still had video from the day she claimed it happened. After my manager reviewed the tape with her, it was clear she was lying, so she dropped her claim. Despite what we might wish, society treats men and women differently, and women are viewed as being particularly vulnerable. If a man had accused me of something similar, no one would have cared. When a woman accused me, without that video, I would have been fired. It's a complex situation. In many cases, people don't believe women when they really are assaulted, or they're force to share the blame when they're blameless. But in other cases the pendulum swings too far in the opposite direction. Like many things it's primarily a function of the relative power of the victim and the accuser. A powerful man can get away with harassing much less powerful women. But a relatively powerless man will quickly find himself in a world of hurt with just the hint of an allegation. A company doesn't want to fire their CEO without hard proof (or at least a lot of bad press), but they'll drop a low level employee quick just to avoid the slight possibility of looking like they aren't taking sexual harassment seriously. I'm not going to let that experience keep me from being alone with a women at work--I don't think I'm very likely to run into another women like that again and avoiding being alone with a women in a modern workplace is just too difficult. But I do understand the rationale driving people to be cautious. I do want to make it clear that I think that the vast majority of times when a women reports assault or harassment, they're telling the truth. But I do think that in some situations where we've started to completely shift the burden of proof to the accused (some employers, certain colleges etc..), we run the risk of creating perverse incentives and punishing an awful lot of innocent people.
- bobwaycott 9y ago
  Oddly enough, I also experienced some weirdness at Best Buy. Worked on the early version of the geek squad (back in 2001 before they had cars and it was just a bunch of computer nerds at a counter). Female store manager made some pretty overt advances, which I declined. I’d had a scheduled vacation the next week. Came back from vacation to learn I’d been fired for inappropriate behavior with the female manager, by the female manager. Nobody wanted to listen to my side of the story or take it seriously. She was still there years later when I happened to go in to buy something.
sheepmullet 9y ago
As a man in a position of power women will sexually harass you in a "good way". To a religious conservative, i.e. Pence, these women are just like drug pushers.
mercer 9y ago
I think people might underestimate the religious side to this. I'm Dutch, and the vast majority of Dutch Evangelical pastors, elders, or youth leaders avoided meeting church members in a 1-on-1 situation across gender. There are some obvious reasons for this, like false accusations by the many less-than-stable members, as well as the therapeutic nature of many meetings (rife with possible line-crossing from both sides, psychologically). Less obvious reasons would include a more fundamental belief in the 'sinful' nature of the flesh. Again, the vast majority of Evangelical leaders I know strongly believe that even the best of people can be tempted into sinful acts, and a pragmatic solution is to avoid the temptation in the first place. I might be wrong, but I get the impression that society in the USA, on the whole, and even now, leans a bit more toward puritanical and/or Evangeical beliefs, or at the very least they're part of mainstream thought. If true, it could explain how so many Americans are wary of being alone with the opposite sex. For example, I find that in my Western European surroundings casual hookups seem much more part of the day to day fabric than they seem to be to my American friends. It strikes me as not unreasonable to conclude that if casual sex is more acceptable here than in the USA (publicly, anyways), what constitutes crossing the boundaries of propriety in the USA might not be considered in the same way over here. Specifically, I've worked in more than one relatively boring, conservative corporations where at the bigger parties various people 'hooked up' with various other people, some of them involving clear power-discrepancies. Nobody batted an eye and the whole thing seemed to be a 'what happens in vegas' type of thing, warranting some juicy gossip at most. I'm not saying that this is how things should be, to be clear, just that generally my impression is that the USA is generally more uptight (best word I can think of, but I don't mean it disparagingly) about these things.

105 points by TuringNYC 9y ago

I've never had that thought or known anyone else. What states are those? There's gotta be a major difference between areas. In my area, if anything, meeting with the opposite sex can insinuate something.

mc32 9y ago

What are people so uptight about? Not that I understand why, but it makes some sense if religious people are somehow shy to that, but atheists? Are people afraid of perception or afraid of misinterpretation or afraid physically, are there that many unhinged people out there? You can totally make friends with people of the same sex you are generally sexually attracted to and it does not mean or have to end up in a weird uncomfortable moment. Just be people. Think how you made friends pre-puberty. You just went and talked.

cup 9y ago
Theres a reason it was easier making friends pre-puberty.
- tluyben2 9y ago
  Personal I guess but I see no difference in my life in that aspect between then and now.
tluyben2 9y ago
I am surprised about this as well: here (EU) people I know have no issues with this at all. Friends are both male and female, for my wife and me, and we meet, alone, with them often. Colleagues as well; I often have lunch/dinner/car rides alone with my colleagues of the opposite sex and never thought about this. They are colleagues and we are there to do a job. I have never, only for highschool teachers, heard anything different than this in NL: my parents did and do the same for instance.
- roel_v 9y ago
  Probably in the group you hang around with, but you can't generalize that. There are definitely people in the Netherlands who will actively avoid situations where they are 1:1 with mixed genders, and not only in work settings. Since I have children, I meet much more people who are 'different' from my 'normal' crowd (which are successful university educated upper middle and upper class professionals) and I havr painfully felt this more than a handful of times the last two years - to the point where I've started to somewhat dread situations where this sort of awkwardness might happen. Additionally, and this is even worse, it is starting to reinforce some stereotypes in me, and is making me less tolerant of those who are uptight like that about it. And this is not something against muslims either; I've had muslim women excuse themselves from me and I just thought 'oh well, when in Rome, do like the Romans'. It's when people are more 'like me' and behave like this that I get annoyed and think less of them (and their background) for it. As bad as that is. (Edit: but what I hate even more is that this is making me adjust my own behavior as well. I start to feel 'uncomfortable' (oh what a horrible word) now in those situations because I realize others might be, and I certainly don't want others to feel like they somehow 'have' to be around me. I'm turning into a product of the society that produces millions of precious little snowflakes with the mental resilience and self-awareness of 2 years olds. I hope it's just part of the transition into being part of the 'old people'. At least that would make it 'normal'.)
  - tluyben2 9y ago
    You are right, cannot generalize. But as it's not a common subject in NL (we usually hear about things that actually happened like the Judo thing); I would find it horrible to have to be careful with everything I do because people might feel 'uncomfortable' (like you I do not like this word; I think uncomfortable is an indigestion type of thing). But this is not at all to belittle people who are generally threatened as yes, that happens, but 'we' (in NL) (and in UK I see it as well) do not have that feeling generally and that's better than this 'let's not go for a drink because I might end up fired'. It widens the gender gap considerably as well as you cannot treat others like equals. You would have that drink with a male colleague, alone etc. I went (as a white guy) to a mostly muslim highschool in Utrecht (Kanaleneiland in the 80s) and besides guns, knives and streets fights, this feeling wasn't there either. But real (in the much more than uncomfortable range) things ofcourse happened, it just didn't leave this kind paranoia behind. If paranoia at all.
Spivak 9y ago
I'll speak up with an example from a man's perspective; it has nothing to do with attraction or religion, it's just not worth the risk. If I'm one-on-one with a woman and a misunderstanding makes her feel uncomfortable or threatened and she accuses me of misconduct or sexual harassment I'm at an enormous disadvantage without any witnesses. When even being accused could be career ending it's best to bring someone else along. I have absolutely no problem going one-on-one with my friends who are women but I can't say the same for strictly co-workers.
- mc32 9y ago
  I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false accusations.
  - Realist1337 9y ago
    >> People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. Sounds like you've already pre-inclined towards a guilty party then, before you even heard evidence from both sides. And if there is no evidence, the man is in a world of trouble. I have personally witnessed a man in the office be fired for "sexual harassment" shortly after escalating an accounting audit issue. Convenient timing and very effective way of dealing with an accounting issue.
    - mc32 9y ago
      I don't doubt that can happen --there are vindictive, retributive people out there. That kind of person would not need a 1:1 or drive home, etc., to bring forward an accusation.
      - throwawayable 9y ago
speedplane 9y ago
It's not easy. Social relationships where there are strict rules of engagement (e.g., professional environments) and where the other person is different than you (e.g., power, sex, age, familial background, religion, etc.) can be extremely difficult to navigate. Dealing with these relationships isn't "natural," and going into it solely based on gut feeling often ends badly. The good news is that it can be taught and learned from experience, but sadly, many receive neither.
jlos 9y ago
It helps to understand features of conservative religious communities: 1) sex, marriage, and family are still inseparably linked and are believed to be foundational to life and human flourishing. Thus, breaking marital vows reflects a profound failure of character. 2) individuals within Convervative Christian have a deep mistrust of their own capacity to resist moral failures. From my conversations, the individual isn't avoiding awkward situations but fears that, should a mutual attraction develop, he would potentially lack the moral resolve to stay faithful. Interestingly enough, I've talked to a few conservative Christian counselors with 25+ years of counselling experience about this issue. They all responded that they actually felt more strongly than when they started counseling about avoiding circumstances that would allow romantic relationships to develop because they had seen so many people ruin their families, reputations, and careers this way. Outside Christian communities, sex, family, and marriage are not inherently related so the priorities seem bizarre or sexist. it largely boils down to a different understand of what it means to he human.
- deleted 9y ago
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- learc83 9y ago
  From a quick google search surveys show that American's almost unanimously find cheating morally wrong, and 60% of all children in America are born to married parents. >Outside Christian communities, sex, family, and marriage are not inherently related I don't think you can say that at all. Looking at the marriage rates in looks like the majority of sex is probably happening in married relationships, even outside of conservative Christian communities. The average American may be OK with sex outside of marriage, but I think they're still pretty related in most people's minds.

cbanek 9y ago

I'm really amazed that the data is that close for "having a work meeting." (25% of women say inappropriate vs 22% of men) That's a lot higher than I was expecting. It makes me wonder why as well. Is it just "inappropriate" (what I imagine Mike Pence thinks)? Does one side think the other side is trying to do something inappropriate or is trying to lead into something? At least in many jobs I've had, 1:1's were basically required time (though, not usually productive time). It's crazy thinking so many working relationships people might be on edge or think of as inappropriate. Of course, the source of the data is "registered voters", not people who have jobs.

meric 9y ago
For the situations where the manager and the managed are of the opposite sex and one or both are aware of their own ethical and spiritual vulnerabilities maybe it'd be a good idea to have a 2:1 or 1:2 instead of a 1:1.
- zdkl 9y ago
  And chaperons for teenagers! /s
  - seanp2k2 9y ago
    And yet most public schools (all?) in the US insist on chaperones for dances, anything overnight (where this isn't banned as it was in my district after 9/11...yep, no school-sponsored overnight trips (which includes any which involve travel, and air travel was separately banned) district-wide)), ski trips, whatever. "If you're not in sight of an adult, you're going to use that time to have sex and do drugs" seemed to be the mindset of the administration.
- cbanek 9y ago
  I hope you're joking, but if you're not, that sounds like a horrible idea to me. Being a woman, and having had 1:1's with male managers for pretty much my entire tech career, I've never heard of this happening. I don't know what spiritual vulnerabilities you are talking about, but in terms of ethics if you can't work with a female employee, you shouldn't be a manager. You're basically telling the person that you can't trust them enough to be alone with and honestly communicate with them when times are good. What happens when things get difficult?

TuringNYC 9y ago

There are two factors at play here: 1. General religiously-driven norms, which are shifting in the US (e.g., VP Pence) 2. Concern, or overly-cautious / over-concern over what happened last week with Binary Capital. Clearly there is a middle ground between the frat-house that Binary Capital was and the monastery environment VP Pence might suggest.

dijit 9y ago

I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought and of course I would never do such a thing; but from a certain perspective it _could_ happen. The same way I could potentially say something deeply uncomfortable to them. So I would understand why females would not desire to be alone with males. Just my 2c EDIT: downvotes? Really? Remind me never to air my concerns in public again.

eropple 9y ago
I didn't downvote you, but your post is hyperbolic and creates barriers for women out of unrealized, unrealistic fear. In particular: > One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. This flies in the face of of...well, just about everything, in most industrialized countries. Serial sexual harassers get away with it for a long time and men who out-and-out assault women do to; somewhere almost certainly north of 50% (NARAL says 90%) of rapes go unreported and of those something like a quarter are ever brought to trial. Being fired--maybe--doesn't make your life "essentially over", and (in the US and the parts of Europe I'm familiar with) there's nothing that can be disclosed to a future employer to say "hey, that dude's a creep" without opening the former employer up to potential danger. And to be crystal clear, everything I just said is a bug, not a feature. Sexual predators in the workplace, most of whom are male, by and large get away with it. It's why the last couple weeks of dudes not getting away with it are so notable. Fearing the same is temporarily-embarrassed-millionaire silliness projected into a new realm, nothing more.
- dijit 9y ago
  I get what you're saying. There are many examples of people doing shitty things and getting away with it; at the same time I work in Sweden; a country that has quite some sensitivity regarding what constitutes rape (strongly suggestive comments are legally rape). It _might_ slide off me if someone accused me of something. But I really wouldn't put that to the test; at the same time. If you can mitigate the risk then why wouldn't you? And again, the female perspective (that I could be abusive, hurtful or a rapist) is certainly enough to dissuade "alone time" for them, _especially_ if I, as a man, were able to get away with things like you were suggesting.

kwellington 9y ago

Here in Japan I regularly hear about women or families saying Japan isn't as safe as it appears. I never understood it, because the data doesn't back it up, and I've never experienced any trouble in nearly 5 years here. I don't have a TV. When I catch TV though, the news programs can harp on a minor crime here in Tokyo like a convenience store robbery for a good thiry minutes. These friends watch a lot of TV. I think media narratives drive these paranoias.

3131s 9y ago
I live in Phnom Penh and I'd say the crime here is about as bad as an average larger American city, but in a different way. There is more petty crime, especially theft. I've lived here 4 years and never had any problem really, but I see visitors and expats alike getting robbed frequently. I've avoided it because I don't carry anything worth stealing and I am not the type of person that thieves target.
- manmal 9y ago
  How do you avoid being the type of person a thief targets? Is it a brawny/threatening look, or just not using an iPhone in public?
  - mc32 9y ago
    Not the OP but when I'm overseas I try to blend in in terms of attire and so on (dress down and don't be flashy). I mean, dress like normal locals dress. Basically don't stick out as a shining target.
    - learc83 9y ago
      Doesn't work when you're 6'5" white guy traveling in most countries outside of North America and Europe.
      - mercer 9y ago
        The 6'5" could be problematic, but as a very white guy I've had very positive experiences by just acting like I belong (acting slightly bored by everything around me while secretly enjoying the new sights, avoiding stops at subway maps and the like, dressing the part, etc.). Most places I've visited have at least enough white people for me to appear 'local poor expat', but I can see how being the only white or only really tall person throws a wrench into that approach.

deleted 9y ago

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cup 9y ago

Mike Pence, Americans and pretty much all of humanity up until the last two generations or so (in most cultures).

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago

Sex is one of the greatest things both now and in the past of bringing out stupid behavior in people. The number of people who have destroyed their wealth, jobs, and/or reputations is staggering. It is not just of matter of more training or consequences. Even with such punishment as being impaled alive http://www.executedtoday.com/2017/03/15/1718-stepan-glebov-lover-of-the-tsarina/ http://www.executedtoday.com/2017/03/15/1718-stepan-glebov-l... or with the threat of eternal damnation, people still had sexual relationships that were deemed illicit. I doubt our worst punishments will come anywhere close to that which was inflicted in the past, and if punishments and stigma in the past could not control sex, I doubt they will now. The underlying issue is that sex is driven by the limbic brain and is not entirely susceptible to reason. This is a hard problem and one that society will struggle with for a long time.

avaer 9y ago
There's hope that convincing simulation technology can remove other humans from the equation and keep the stupidity contained, the way we've done with other intoxicants. But that's a chicken and egg problem, because a prerequisite is getting society to accept it as ok to be sexually fulfilled by technology when your tastes are considered illicit. People still get sent to jail for having racy cartoons in some parts of the world.
diminish 9y ago
At some point if we can augment humans to separate reproduction from sex (act of sex), we can free sex from the 'heavy' meaning it receives in social contexts being the subject of so much drama and tragedy. When sex and reproduction divorces, we ll pave a new way for reproduction to be made more reasonably and sex to become more abundant - by implanting Krause bodies all around the human skin not only few current locations.
lqdc13 9y ago
As dumb as it is, it's also the only reason you are alive. Some people see their main goal in life as to find the best partner they can. Sex is closely related IMO.
- 9y ago

aiyodev 9y ago

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

cbanek 9y ago
Why would a woman need to be alone with you? If someone wanted to, they could just fabricate it without being alone with you (since you said they need no evidence). On the flip side, as a woman I could say being alone with a man, he's stronger than me so he could kill or rape me whenever he wanted, so never be alone with a man?
eulo__ 9y ago
Such an irrational fear, like worrying about getting hit by lightning on the way to the shops. Also goodluck convincing anyone that I sexually assaulted someone. People wouldn't be able to take you seriously after a claim like that.
- lqdc13 9y ago
  How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1]. That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year. [1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situation_en.pdf http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa...
  - eulo__ 9y ago
    I think if you're worried about woman calling you out for being a dick, you're probably worried because you're a dick to women. People aren't malicious in my experience unless you give them cause to be.

bambax 9y ago

> When he needs to meet with women at work or his church, he makes sure doors are left open and another person is present. Saint-Simon, the memorialist descibing life at the court of Louis XIV of France in the late 17th century, tells how, when the King had a meeting with his current mistress, he would leave all doors open so that no one would wonder about what was going on. The problem was, when the King met with other women (or men) he would have the doors closed, so the fact that the doors were open was a tell! ;-)

vacri 9y ago

Wasn't the problem less about his personal dining habits, and more about cutting off female lobbyists, given his role in politics? No-one cares if Bob down the road is uncomfortable eating 1:1 with a woman not his wife, because he's not a political powerbroker.

rufford 9y ago

It's a cultural issue with Americans. There seems to be a belief there that equality is not really equality but a battle of the genders imo. Women and men alike obsess over the differences and have very traditional dating structures/marriages. Gender equality in Europe makes the states look like a joke

axaxs 9y ago
Hit the nail on the head. Americans are in constant battle, whether sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. It's not as 'equal' as it seems, and if it is, it's because persons go out of their way to cater to those groups. It would be nicer just to see them no differently at all, but I digress.
- throwaway688 9y ago
  > just to see them no differently at all I agree but you can't say this sentiment out loud in some US big tech companies. In fact, saying it out loud may lead to social outrage + job loss + career suicide. A closely related issue to the main one being discussed here.
xiaoma 9y ago
I've noticed a huge difference between China (and the greater Chinese speaking community throughout Asia) and the US, too. I also see a lot of hostility between the sexes in the US. Part of that is due to differences in how people use social media for public shaming and to share "outrage porn", but even in offline interactions there are just fundamentally different expectations. It's absolutely striking how few American couples pour their resources together and run a business together. There are still some family businesses, but it seems like most are run by immigrants. To me, it seems like such a natural thing to band together with and feel you are on a team with the person you've decided to spend your life with. Of course not everyone can be an entrepreneur, but it also looks uncommon in the US for people to significantly invest in their partner's careers either. The focus is more personal. Us vs them has some problems with nepotism and cases of corruption, but it does a lot better than "us vs us", IMO.

speedplane 9y ago

Two surprises about this article: 1 - 25% of women think it's inappropriate to have a work meeting with a man. 2 - 41% of men think it's appropriate to have a drink one-on-one with a women.

swiley 9y ago
Yeah the drink thing is definitely inappropriate.
- speedplane 9y ago
  There are a lot of ways it could be made appropriate, e.g., group setting, a long work-history together, very equal power dynamic. But the idea of a superior bringing out a female for a drink one-on-one is almost certainly a recipe for disaster. Go for lunch, coffee, or a game of golf instead.
  - detaro 9y ago
    At least as it's presented in the article, the question wasn't about a superior or just a work colleague at all, but about any man/woman?
  - tluyben2 9y ago
    You are talking about a superior; then you have to be a bit more careful. What if equal colleagues? I cannot why that is a problem. It is just a drink.
    - speedplane 9y ago
      In theory, I agree, but in practice, no two are exactly equal. Even if they have the same title, some have more influence, connections, respect. And if it's just a drink, that's totally fine too. The concern is that if one, the other, or both become intoxicated, it may become more. The solution isn't hard, bring a buddy with you, or do something that doesn't involve drinking.

jlebar 9y ago

I wrote this when the Pence story broke in March. >>>>>>>>> I wanted to write this yesterday, but thankfully I didn't, because Jia Tolentino did a much better job than I would have in the New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/mike-pences-marriage-and-the-beliefs-that-keep-women-from-power http://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/mike-pences-m... What bothers me about Pence's "no meals alone with women who aren't my wife" and "no working late with female aides" rules isn't that he's trying to protect women from himself. He rightly understands that he's a powerful man, and many women have been harmed, sexually or otherwise, by people remarkably like him. Kudos to Mike Pence for getting that, even if he also doesn't get that many men have been harmed in just the same way. What bothers me is that he (apparently) pays no heed to the question of how to protect women from himself while still ensuring they can have equitable careers. "You go home, honey; Jack will stay and help me" is saying that women and men have different roles to play in Pence's staff, and that's quintessential sexism (and may be illegal). And as the article points out, "no successful woman could ever abide by [Pence's no-meals-alone rule]." Anyway this article frames the issue really well.

speedplane 9y ago
If it's done properly, there are alternatives. Instead of having drinks one-on-one, you invite a mutual friend, or you go for lunch, coffee, or a jog. I don't think these alternatives are natural to most people, but I do think they can be taught. In good organizations, they are.

learc83 9y ago

When I was in college I was a team lead at Best Buy for a while. I was in charge of a mostly female team of cashiers, and I was alone with them in the cash office frequently while they counted their tills. I made one of the cashiers mad by reprimanding her, and she decided to get back at me by claiming that I grabbed her and shook her while we were in the cash office. I never touched her, and luckily we still had video from the day she claimed it happened. After my manager reviewed the tape with her, it was clear she was lying, so she dropped her claim. Despite what we might wish, society treats men and women differently, and women are viewed as being particularly vulnerable. If a man had accused me of something similar, no one would have cared. When a woman accused me, without that video, I would have been fired. It's a complex situation. In many cases, people don't believe women when they really are assaulted, or they're force to share the blame when they're blameless. But in other cases the pendulum swings too far in the opposite direction. Like many things it's primarily a function of the relative power of the victim and the accuser. A powerful man can get away with harassing much less powerful women. But a relatively powerless man will quickly find himself in a world of hurt with just the hint of an allegation. A company doesn't want to fire their CEO without hard proof (or at least a lot of bad press), but they'll drop a low level employee quick just to avoid the slight possibility of looking like they aren't taking sexual harassment seriously. I'm not going to let that experience keep me from being alone with a women at work--I don't think I'm very likely to run into another women like that again and avoiding being alone with a women in a modern workplace is just too difficult. But I do understand the rationale driving people to be cautious. I do want to make it clear that I think that the vast majority of times when a women reports assault or harassment, they're telling the truth. But I do think that in some situations where we've started to completely shift the burden of proof to the accused (some employers, certain colleges etc..), we run the risk of creating perverse incentives and punishing an awful lot of innocent people.

bobwaycott 9y ago
Oddly enough, I also experienced some weirdness at Best Buy. Worked on the early version of the geek squad (back in 2001 before they had cars and it was just a bunch of computer nerds at a counter). Female store manager made some pretty overt advances, which I declined. I’d had a scheduled vacation the next week. Came back from vacation to learn I’d been fired for inappropriate behavior with the female manager, by the female manager. Nobody wanted to listen to my side of the story or take it seriously. She was still there years later when I happened to go in to buy something.

sheepmullet 9y ago

As a man in a position of power women will sexually harass you in a "good way". To a religious conservative, i.e. Pence, these women are just like drug pushers.

mercer 9y ago

I think people might underestimate the religious side to this. I'm Dutch, and the vast majority of Dutch Evangelical pastors, elders, or youth leaders avoided meeting church members in a 1-on-1 situation across gender. There are some obvious reasons for this, like false accusations by the many less-than-stable members, as well as the therapeutic nature of many meetings (rife with possible line-crossing from both sides, psychologically). Less obvious reasons would include a more fundamental belief in the 'sinful' nature of the flesh. Again, the vast majority of Evangelical leaders I know strongly believe that even the best of people can be tempted into sinful acts, and a pragmatic solution is to avoid the temptation in the first place. I might be wrong, but I get the impression that society in the USA, on the whole, and even now, leans a bit more toward puritanical and/or Evangeical beliefs, or at the very least they're part of mainstream thought. If true, it could explain how so many Americans are wary of being alone with the opposite sex. For example, I find that in my Western European surroundings casual hookups seem much more part of the day to day fabric than they seem to be to my American friends. It strikes me as not unreasonable to conclude that if casual sex is more acceptable here than in the USA (publicly, anyways), what constitutes crossing the boundaries of propriety in the USA might not be considered in the same way over here. Specifically, I've worked in more than one relatively boring, conservative corporations where at the bigger parties various people 'hooked up' with various other people, some of them involving clear power-discrepancies. Nobody batted an eye and the whole thing seemed to be a 'what happens in vegas' type of thing, warranting some juicy gossip at most. I'm not saying that this is how things should be, to be clear, just that generally my impression is that the USA is generally more uptight (best word I can think of, but I don't mean it disparagingly) about these things.