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I find European culture and history alluring, but I don't think Europe is somehow "more free" than the U.S., in particular, you guys have much more regulation a

I find European culture and history alluring, but I don't think Europe is somehow "more free" than the U.S., in particular, you guys have much more regulation and far greater taxes. Maybe you have a greater quality of life by certain measures, but I think the freedom point is hard to defend. Maybe I'm wrong?

dna_polymerase 9y ago
You are not. In fact Europe tends to be worse. The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. In the past years we have seen a huge flip to the right side. The eastern nations are largely in the hands of ultra-right wing politicians even worse than Trump. Germany stands but wait for the election this year and that might be gone, too. Britain is already leaving the party and France just dodged a Bullet but got Macron in return. It's not all bad here, but it keeps getting worse.
- Hasknewbie 9y ago
  >> The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. False but typical argument. Some laws are voted in Brussels, all such laws have to be approved by the Europen Parliament whose members are directly elected (you elected a MEP, remember?), and many such laws are just harmonization of local laws that already existed in most member states. The moment where we may have 'no idea' is when a law is drafted and negociated behind closed doors by the Commission, i.e the EU governments' representatives (your government and my government) who then conveniently blames Brussels for said 'closed doors', when it suits them. There are reforms to be made in the EU for sure, but saying it is all-encompassing and secret is a mischaracterisation. The info is out there, it's just not spoon-fed to you by the media, mostly because it's boring. For example, what is being voted on can be accessed here: http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-votes.html http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-...
Daishiman 9y ago
Taxes adjusted by the money not being paid in equivalent private services and transportation in the US are remarkably similar.
- weberc2 9y ago
  I believe it. I wonder if that figure assumes personal insurance and the like as opposed to corporate benefits. I imagine for the HN crowd, the US is the better financial bargain (obviously there are lots of other factors besides finances) but if I were low income maybe I would prefer the EU?
rockinghigh 9y ago
What freedoms do you think are missing in Europe? Owning a gun? Taxes are higher because they include health insurance, free education, retirement benefits and unemployment insurance.
- Toboe 9y ago
  Note: You can have guns in Europe (details differ per country) Just without the "Any guncontrol is an attack on freedom!" side of the debate. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/World_map_of_civilian_gun_ownership_-_2nd_color_scheme.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/World_ma...
computereye 9y ago
I think not knowing the laws and cultural rules makes you feel more insecure in a foreign country. That's what I experienced while visiting the US, but I assume it feels the same the other way around for an American in France.
biztos 9y ago
Taxes are not higher everywhere, and where they are higher it's usually because there is really awesome infrastructure and a social safety net and other stuff you would normally want to finance collectively. Compare, say, the homeless situation in Berlin to that in San Francisco... or compare pretty much any bus system anywhere in the developed world to MUNI. One freedom Europeans have is freedom from fear of the police, i.e. I don't think there's any country in Europe in which you might have to fear for your life when you're not doing anything wrong and happen to meet a cop, regardless of your skin color. Also I think there's more political freedom in countries where small parties play a role in government, i.e. you don't have to choose between the Democrats or Republicans or a symbolic protest vote. And while this varies by country, there are places where you can be just as "off the grid" as in the US and the bureaucracy will never find you (or even try). But I wouldn't try that in, say, Germany. Anyway, that said I wouldn't propose that an American is likely to feel "more free" living in Europe, probably the opposite, but in some things they probably would be. Source: US American living in Europe for a long time. :-)
- weberc2 9y ago
  Thanks for your response. Maybe taxes in California are crater than Croatia, but I would be very surprised if the average tax want much greater in Europe than in the US. Do you have specific places in mind? I also think fear of police is overblown in the US (maybe I would feel differently if my skin were a different color, but this doesn't appear to have a basis in data), and "freedom from fear of police" isn't really a political freedom (at least in my mind) unless you are referring to police oppressing people for their speech, political affiliations, etc, which clearly is a non-issue in the US. That said, while the odds of being injured or killed by police are many times greater than in Europe, they are still miniscule. It seems analogous to the recently heightened risk of terrorist activity in Europe--many times greater than in the US, but still not a reason to avoid Europe. I do think Europe is a good value proposition for a lot of people (I've lived there and occasionally consider trying to move back), but I don't think Europeans have more freedom.
  - biztos 9y ago
    The tax picture is complicated, as always, but consider Hungary, where VAT is very high (27%) but income tax is very low (15% flat tax). Vibrant tech scene, programmers are paid very well by local standards, etc. Having gotten quite used to the mellow police of Europe (not that I've ever been arrested or anything) I find the militarized police of the US unnerving every time I go back. Not sure I'd call it a political freedom but having mostly-friendly cops even in a really big city is a big quality of life thing. Plus, drinking beer on the tram (in Berlin) -- that's definitely a freedom you won't enjoy in California. :-)
graniter 9y ago
I consider myself a highly patriotic American and I used to think that France was much less free than the US, but after living here I have a different view. There seem to be fewer extremes in France: not so many rich people, not so many poor people. No one seems to get too worked up about anything. You can't so easily go buy dirt cheap, low quality food/clothes/cars/housing that are just going to cause you problems later. There is a ton of administration (see my comments elsewhere in this thread) but most of it you only have to do once. Drivers licenses last 15 years. You register you car once and pay tax once, not every year, and the tax isn't that much. No required safety and admissions tests. Property tax is really low (600 euros a year on a 200K euro house). Gas is more expensive, but everything else is generally the same as the US (I live outside Paris). Auto insurance costs me 25 euros a month for two drivers, two vehicles, with unlimited personal liability and 100 million euro property damages liability (not a typo). Doctor's visits are 25 euros each time and basically no other fees at all (from what I can tell). It's cheap and easy to register a small business. I rarely see police. I've seen a car pulled over by police 1 time in 1 year. Once you get all your paperwork in line and get "in the system" life is pretty good. It's calm and you have a lot of social protections which brings peace of mind. It's safe. Crime is low. Food quality is off the charts. If you haven't been to France, come just for the food. You'll never be the same. Food quality is high and prices are a little lower than in the US. You pay more in taxes, but not a lot more (ignoring having to pay US income tax as an expat). So it has caused me to look at freedom differently. Here in France it feels like the government is actually on your side, working to protect you. I've never felt that way in the US. I'm sure France has it's corruption and injustices but it seems much lower than the US. The US is more like the Wild West. You are free, but you have to defend yourself. You have to do everything on your own: plow the field, milk the cows, stand with a shotgun when someone rides in. It's a sort of "dangerous" freedom. I'd take that over being subjugated, but France seems to have a better perspective. I think the climate and culture are the reason why, not really the form of government. And I don't think there is as much racial or ethnic strife here. So I think France is actually pretty free. But I don't know if the US would get the same results if it just implemented the same policies. I think there would need to be a cultural change first.
- weberc2 9y ago
  I like France, and I lived there for a short time (near Rennes) and just returned from a trip to Paris a few weeks ago. There is certainly a lot to like, my comment was only about the degree of freedom. Thanks for your thoughtful comment!

dna_polymerase 9y ago

You are not. In fact Europe tends to be worse. The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. In the past years we have seen a huge flip to the right side. The eastern nations are largely in the hands of ultra-right wing politicians even worse than Trump. Germany stands but wait for the election this year and that might be gone, too. Britain is already leaving the party and France just dodged a Bullet but got Macron in return. It's not all bad here, but it keeps getting worse.

Hasknewbie 9y ago
>> The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. False but typical argument. Some laws are voted in Brussels, all such laws have to be approved by the Europen Parliament whose members are directly elected (you elected a MEP, remember?), and many such laws are just harmonization of local laws that already existed in most member states. The moment where we may have 'no idea' is when a law is drafted and negociated behind closed doors by the Commission, i.e the EU governments' representatives (your government and my government) who then conveniently blames Brussels for said 'closed doors', when it suits them. There are reforms to be made in the EU for sure, but saying it is all-encompassing and secret is a mischaracterisation. The info is out there, it's just not spoon-fed to you by the media, mostly because it's boring. For example, what is being voted on can be accessed here: http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-votes.html http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-...

Daishiman 9y ago

Taxes adjusted by the money not being paid in equivalent private services and transportation in the US are remarkably similar.

weberc2 9y ago
I believe it. I wonder if that figure assumes personal insurance and the like as opposed to corporate benefits. I imagine for the HN crowd, the US is the better financial bargain (obviously there are lots of other factors besides finances) but if I were low income maybe I would prefer the EU?

rockinghigh 9y ago

What freedoms do you think are missing in Europe? Owning a gun? Taxes are higher because they include health insurance, free education, retirement benefits and unemployment insurance.

Toboe 9y ago
Note: You can have guns in Europe (details differ per country) Just without the "Any guncontrol is an attack on freedom!" side of the debate. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/World_map_of_civilian_gun_ownership_-_2nd_color_scheme.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/World_ma...

computereye 9y ago

I think not knowing the laws and cultural rules makes you feel more insecure in a foreign country. That's what I experienced while visiting the US, but I assume it feels the same the other way around for an American in France.

biztos 9y ago

Taxes are not higher everywhere, and where they are higher it's usually because there is really awesome infrastructure and a social safety net and other stuff you would normally want to finance collectively. Compare, say, the homeless situation in Berlin to that in San Francisco... or compare pretty much any bus system anywhere in the developed world to MUNI. One freedom Europeans have is freedom from fear of the police, i.e. I don't think there's any country in Europe in which you might have to fear for your life when you're not doing anything wrong and happen to meet a cop, regardless of your skin color. Also I think there's more political freedom in countries where small parties play a role in government, i.e. you don't have to choose between the Democrats or Republicans or a symbolic protest vote. And while this varies by country, there are places where you can be just as "off the grid" as in the US and the bureaucracy will never find you (or even try). But I wouldn't try that in, say, Germany. Anyway, that said I wouldn't propose that an American is likely to feel "more free" living in Europe, probably the opposite, but in some things they probably would be. Source: US American living in Europe for a long time. :-)

weberc2 9y ago
Thanks for your response. Maybe taxes in California are crater than Croatia, but I would be very surprised if the average tax want much greater in Europe than in the US. Do you have specific places in mind? I also think fear of police is overblown in the US (maybe I would feel differently if my skin were a different color, but this doesn't appear to have a basis in data), and "freedom from fear of police" isn't really a political freedom (at least in my mind) unless you are referring to police oppressing people for their speech, political affiliations, etc, which clearly is a non-issue in the US. That said, while the odds of being injured or killed by police are many times greater than in Europe, they are still miniscule. It seems analogous to the recently heightened risk of terrorist activity in Europe--many times greater than in the US, but still not a reason to avoid Europe. I do think Europe is a good value proposition for a lot of people (I've lived there and occasionally consider trying to move back), but I don't think Europeans have more freedom.
- biztos 9y ago
  The tax picture is complicated, as always, but consider Hungary, where VAT is very high (27%) but income tax is very low (15% flat tax). Vibrant tech scene, programmers are paid very well by local standards, etc. Having gotten quite used to the mellow police of Europe (not that I've ever been arrested or anything) I find the militarized police of the US unnerving every time I go back. Not sure I'd call it a political freedom but having mostly-friendly cops even in a really big city is a big quality of life thing. Plus, drinking beer on the tram (in Berlin) -- that's definitely a freedom you won't enjoy in California. :-)

graniter 9y ago

I consider myself a highly patriotic American and I used to think that France was much less free than the US, but after living here I have a different view. There seem to be fewer extremes in France: not so many rich people, not so many poor people. No one seems to get too worked up about anything. You can't so easily go buy dirt cheap, low quality food/clothes/cars/housing that are just going to cause you problems later. There is a ton of administration (see my comments elsewhere in this thread) but most of it you only have to do once. Drivers licenses last 15 years. You register you car once and pay tax once, not every year, and the tax isn't that much. No required safety and admissions tests. Property tax is really low (600 euros a year on a 200K euro house). Gas is more expensive, but everything else is generally the same as the US (I live outside Paris). Auto insurance costs me 25 euros a month for two drivers, two vehicles, with unlimited personal liability and 100 million euro property damages liability (not a typo). Doctor's visits are 25 euros each time and basically no other fees at all (from what I can tell). It's cheap and easy to register a small business. I rarely see police. I've seen a car pulled over by police 1 time in 1 year. Once you get all your paperwork in line and get "in the system" life is pretty good. It's calm and you have a lot of social protections which brings peace of mind. It's safe. Crime is low. Food quality is off the charts. If you haven't been to France, come just for the food. You'll never be the same. Food quality is high and prices are a little lower than in the US. You pay more in taxes, but not a lot more (ignoring having to pay US income tax as an expat). So it has caused me to look at freedom differently. Here in France it feels like the government is actually on your side, working to protect you. I've never felt that way in the US. I'm sure France has it's corruption and injustices but it seems much lower than the US. The US is more like the Wild West. You are free, but you have to defend yourself. You have to do everything on your own: plow the field, milk the cows, stand with a shotgun when someone rides in. It's a sort of "dangerous" freedom. I'd take that over being subjugated, but France seems to have a better perspective. I think the climate and culture are the reason why, not really the form of government. And I don't think there is as much racial or ethnic strife here. So I think France is actually pretty free. But I don't know if the US would get the same results if it just implemented the same policies. I think there would need to be a cultural change first.

weberc2 9y ago
I like France, and I lived there for a short time (near Rennes) and just returned from a trip to Paris a few weeks ago. There is certainly a lot to like, my comment was only about the degree of freedom. Thanks for your thoughtful comment!