7 ms·

At this point it seems that many Europe nations are more "free" than the US. Now with same-sex marriage getting legal in germany the probably last big issue is

At this point it seems that many Europe nations are more "free" than the US. Now with same-sex marriage getting legal in germany the probably last big issue is resolved. You will not get extreme high salaries like in the US, but there is stuff like free higher education and getting serious medical care won't be expensive at all. Also remember that the EU has a higher population than the US with very diverse countries to explore just a few hours apart, all rich of culture and stuff that is over thousand years old. Oh, and of course we don't have Trump. :D

dna_polymerase 9y ago
They might get higher numbers, but they are paid in Dollar which is less worth than Euro, also everything is more expensive there than it is here, especially rent and food.
- weberc2 9y ago
  Rent is far cheaper in the U.S. My last apartment was $450/month for 600 sq ft in a good neighborhood. I paid $650 for less than half of that in rural France. Food is probably cheaper too, though not as dramatically. I'm sure there are lots of perks to living in Europe, but rent is not among them.
  - dna_polymerase 9y ago
    > Rent Prices in Germany are 29.77% lower than in United States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Germany https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...
    - weberc2 9y ago
      Those figures don't normalize for apartment size. The "cost to buy" figures do, however, and they show the US costing less than half the price in Germany.
  - romwell 9y ago
    Where the hell are you living in this country? Just curious, 'cause the rent in places like Waterloo, IA is about twice the number you quoted. And there's not much going on in Waterloo, IA.
    - weberc2 9y ago
      For 600 sq ft? That's not hard to find anywhere in the Midwest. Here are dozens of results for Waterloo, IA for below $600, many of which are much larger than 600 sq ft: https://www.zillow.com/homes/21174_rid/42.570466,-92.248879,42.422184,-92.437119_rect/0_fs/0_rs/1_fr/1_z/0_mmm/true_fro/-600_mp/1-_beds/any_days/condo,house,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/days_sort/ https://www.zillow.com/homes/21174_rid/42.570466,-92.248879,...
  - nraynaud 9y ago
    Strange, to me it's the converse experience, my appartement in downtown Montpellier, is cheaper and bigger than my girlfriend's appartement in south Scottsdale, AZ.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Uh, what? Have you been to the United States before? Everything, and I mean everything is incredibly cheap here. I'm just like an average dev in flyover country and I max out my retirement savings, bought a house, and can go buy a BMW and fill it up with <$2.00/gal gasoline, oh and that's just on my income. Doesn't include spouse. And after I fill up with gas I can go to an average grocery store that is far larger than just about anything I've seen in all my European travels and buy like 50 avocados for $0.89/ea, then go buy a bottle of Grey Goose for $30, pour it out, then buy another one and pretend I'm in Europe paying Europe prices for things.
  - pedrosorio 9y ago
    "I can go to an average grocery store that is far larger than just about anything I've seen in all my European travels" How is this relevant?
    - rockinghigh 9y ago
      It's also not true. Carrefour and Auchan stores in France can be the same size as the big Walmart stores in the US.
      - computereye 9y ago
        I agree. In addition, food quality is miles ahead
        muninn_ 9y ago
        No it's not. Plus the selection in American grocery stores is far superior.
      - muninn_ 9y ago
        Right, which is why I said average. Average American grocery stores are nearby and sell a gigantic amount of food. And the quality is exactly the same or better.
    - 9y ago
weberc2 9y ago
I find European culture and history alluring, but I don't think Europe is somehow "more free" than the U.S., in particular, you guys have much more regulation and far greater taxes. Maybe you have a greater quality of life by certain measures, but I think the freedom point is hard to defend. Maybe I'm wrong?
- dna_polymerase 9y ago
  You are not. In fact Europe tends to be worse. The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. In the past years we have seen a huge flip to the right side. The eastern nations are largely in the hands of ultra-right wing politicians even worse than Trump. Germany stands but wait for the election this year and that might be gone, too. Britain is already leaving the party and France just dodged a Bullet but got Macron in return. It's not all bad here, but it keeps getting worse.
  - Hasknewbie 9y ago
    >> The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. False but typical argument. Some laws are voted in Brussels, all such laws have to be approved by the Europen Parliament whose members are directly elected (you elected a MEP, remember?), and many such laws are just harmonization of local laws that already existed in most member states. The moment where we may have 'no idea' is when a law is drafted and negociated behind closed doors by the Commission, i.e the EU governments' representatives (your government and my government) who then conveniently blames Brussels for said 'closed doors', when it suits them. There are reforms to be made in the EU for sure, but saying it is all-encompassing and secret is a mischaracterisation. The info is out there, it's just not spoon-fed to you by the media, mostly because it's boring. For example, what is being voted on can be accessed here: http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-votes.html http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-...
- Daishiman 9y ago
  Taxes adjusted by the money not being paid in equivalent private services and transportation in the US are remarkably similar.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
You don't have Trump, but other than Switzerland, any of the European countries are within a generation of being ruled by an autocrat with far more power than Trump. From Franco in Spain, De Gaulle in France, Hitler in Germany and even some the of post WWII Chancellors were pretty autocratic. In addition, Europe seems to have far more tolerance for government intervention in everyday life. In addition, especially in Germany, criminal speech codes have kept a lot of badness under the surface without a legal way to voice it. Thus, IMHO there is a volcano under the surface, and if it goes off and someone like Trump comes to power,they will be controlling a more pervasive government that can do far more harm than the US government.
- mattmanser 9y ago
  It's 72 years since Hitler or Mussolini, how's that within a generation?
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    RcouF1uZ4gsC probably confused "within a generation" with "within living memory".
  - antod 9y ago
    Maybe he meant they turned into fascist states ruled by Hitler or Mussolini within a generation?
- wott 9y ago
  Franco, Hitler and... De Gaulle lumped together. All right, mate...
- rockinghigh 9y ago
  You may want to read about who De Gaulle was. Comparing him to Hitler or Franco is ridiculous.
cmahler7 9y ago
Germany is currently raiding people's homes for posting anything they deem "hate speech" online. Facebook can be fined 50 million now for not removing what the German government deems hate speech. No WrongThink allowed in Germany. That isn't "freedom" in my mind and I think any member of HN should be horrified at the precedent being set for the future. What happens when someone who comes into power determines "hate speech" is anything that goes against them? Ironically, Germany has returned to Nazi policies in their attempts to prove they aren't Nazis anymore. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-a...
- anonyfox 9y ago
  Your freedom ends where my freedom begins. Hate speech only does harm other people, so why should we tolerate it? Sure it may be abused under circumstances, but afaik most people here are in favor of these laws. Just because you disagree doesn't make us less free. Oh and of course we're talking about obvious hate speech here, not suppressing political discussion. By the way, we already had the "Stasi" in Germany and know exactly how real political censorship feels like. There is quite a difference between that and trying to protect peasants from being harassed to death.
- icebraining 9y ago
  On the contrary, Germany is only doing what the Americans taught them was effective against Nazis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#Censorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#Censorship
- Hasknewbie 9y ago
  The tone of your post indicates you have no idea what you are talking about. In Europe hate speech laws are a thing, essentially it is considered a form of libel and/or intimidation. It exists across most of Europe, and has existed for decades. You may agree or disagree with that kind of (again, fairly common) legal framework, but this has nothing to do specifically with Germany or with 2017. The only news in this article is that until now typically they would act on social media only following complaint, whereas now they are acting as if it were traditional media (i.e. acting once it is published).

dna_polymerase 9y ago

They might get higher numbers, but they are paid in Dollar which is less worth than Euro, also everything is more expensive there than it is here, especially rent and food.

weberc2 9y ago
Rent is far cheaper in the U.S. My last apartment was $450/month for 600 sq ft in a good neighborhood. I paid $650 for less than half of that in rural France. Food is probably cheaper too, though not as dramatically. I'm sure there are lots of perks to living in Europe, but rent is not among them.
- dna_polymerase 9y ago
  > Rent Prices in Germany are 29.77% lower than in United States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Germany https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...
  - weberc2 9y ago
    Those figures don't normalize for apartment size. The "cost to buy" figures do, however, and they show the US costing less than half the price in Germany.
- romwell 9y ago
  Where the hell are you living in this country? Just curious, 'cause the rent in places like Waterloo, IA is about twice the number you quoted. And there's not much going on in Waterloo, IA.
  - weberc2 9y ago
    For 600 sq ft? That's not hard to find anywhere in the Midwest. Here are dozens of results for Waterloo, IA for below $600, many of which are much larger than 600 sq ft: https://www.zillow.com/homes/21174_rid/42.570466,-92.248879,42.422184,-92.437119_rect/0_fs/0_rs/1_fr/1_z/0_mmm/true_fro/-600_mp/1-_beds/any_days/condo,house,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/days_sort/ https://www.zillow.com/homes/21174_rid/42.570466,-92.248879,...
- nraynaud 9y ago
  Strange, to me it's the converse experience, my appartement in downtown Montpellier, is cheaper and bigger than my girlfriend's appartement in south Scottsdale, AZ.
muninn_ 9y ago
Uh, what? Have you been to the United States before? Everything, and I mean everything is incredibly cheap here. I'm just like an average dev in flyover country and I max out my retirement savings, bought a house, and can go buy a BMW and fill it up with <$2.00/gal gasoline, oh and that's just on my income. Doesn't include spouse. And after I fill up with gas I can go to an average grocery store that is far larger than just about anything I've seen in all my European travels and buy like 50 avocados for $0.89/ea, then go buy a bottle of Grey Goose for $30, pour it out, then buy another one and pretend I'm in Europe paying Europe prices for things.
- pedrosorio 9y ago
  "I can go to an average grocery store that is far larger than just about anything I've seen in all my European travels" How is this relevant?
  - rockinghigh 9y ago
    It's also not true. Carrefour and Auchan stores in France can be the same size as the big Walmart stores in the US.
    - computereye 9y ago
      I agree. In addition, food quality is miles ahead
      - muninn_ 9y ago
        No it's not. Plus the selection in American grocery stores is far superior.
    - muninn_ 9y ago
      Right, which is why I said average. Average American grocery stores are nearby and sell a gigantic amount of food. And the quality is exactly the same or better.
  - 9y ago

weberc2 9y ago

I find European culture and history alluring, but I don't think Europe is somehow "more free" than the U.S., in particular, you guys have much more regulation and far greater taxes. Maybe you have a greater quality of life by certain measures, but I think the freedom point is hard to defend. Maybe I'm wrong?

dna_polymerase 9y ago
You are not. In fact Europe tends to be worse. The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. In the past years we have seen a huge flip to the right side. The eastern nations are largely in the hands of ultra-right wing politicians even worse than Trump. Germany stands but wait for the election this year and that might be gone, too. Britain is already leaving the party and France just dodged a Bullet but got Macron in return. It's not all bad here, but it keeps getting worse.
- Hasknewbie 9y ago
  >> The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. False but typical argument. Some laws are voted in Brussels, all such laws have to be approved by the Europen Parliament whose members are directly elected (you elected a MEP, remember?), and many such laws are just harmonization of local laws that already existed in most member states. The moment where we may have 'no idea' is when a law is drafted and negociated behind closed doors by the Commission, i.e the EU governments' representatives (your government and my government) who then conveniently blames Brussels for said 'closed doors', when it suits them. There are reforms to be made in the EU for sure, but saying it is all-encompassing and secret is a mischaracterisation. The info is out there, it's just not spoon-fed to you by the media, mostly because it's boring. For example, what is being voted on can be accessed here: http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-votes.html http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-...
Daishiman 9y ago
Taxes adjusted by the money not being paid in equivalent private services and transportation in the US are remarkably similar.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago

You don't have Trump, but other than Switzerland, any of the European countries are within a generation of being ruled by an autocrat with far more power than Trump. From Franco in Spain, De Gaulle in France, Hitler in Germany and even some the of post WWII Chancellors were pretty autocratic. In addition, Europe seems to have far more tolerance for government intervention in everyday life. In addition, especially in Germany, criminal speech codes have kept a lot of badness under the surface without a legal way to voice it. Thus, IMHO there is a volcano under the surface, and if it goes off and someone like Trump comes to power,they will be controlling a more pervasive government that can do far more harm than the US government.

mattmanser 9y ago
It's 72 years since Hitler or Mussolini, how's that within a generation?
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  RcouF1uZ4gsC probably confused "within a generation" with "within living memory".
- antod 9y ago
  Maybe he meant they turned into fascist states ruled by Hitler or Mussolini within a generation?
wott 9y ago
Franco, Hitler and... De Gaulle lumped together. All right, mate...
rockinghigh 9y ago
You may want to read about who De Gaulle was. Comparing him to Hitler or Franco is ridiculous.

cmahler7 9y ago

Germany is currently raiding people's homes for posting anything they deem "hate speech" online. Facebook can be fined 50 million now for not removing what the German government deems hate speech. No WrongThink allowed in Germany. That isn't "freedom" in my mind and I think any member of HN should be horrified at the precedent being set for the future. What happens when someone who comes into power determines "hate speech" is anything that goes against them? Ironically, Germany has returned to Nazi policies in their attempts to prove they aren't Nazis anymore. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-a...

anonyfox 9y ago
Your freedom ends where my freedom begins. Hate speech only does harm other people, so why should we tolerate it? Sure it may be abused under circumstances, but afaik most people here are in favor of these laws. Just because you disagree doesn't make us less free. Oh and of course we're talking about obvious hate speech here, not suppressing political discussion. By the way, we already had the "Stasi" in Germany and know exactly how real political censorship feels like. There is quite a difference between that and trying to protect peasants from being harassed to death.
icebraining 9y ago
On the contrary, Germany is only doing what the Americans taught them was effective against Nazis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#Censorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#Censorship
Hasknewbie 9y ago
The tone of your post indicates you have no idea what you are talking about. In Europe hate speech laws are a thing, essentially it is considered a form of libel and/or intimidation. It exists across most of Europe, and has existed for decades. You may agree or disagree with that kind of (again, fairly common) legal framework, but this has nothing to do specifically with Germany or with 2017. The only news in this article is that until now typically they would act on social media only following complaint, whereas now they are acting as if it were traditional media (i.e. acting once it is published).