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I'm not vegan, but the counterargument I've heard is that an unbalanced omnivore diet can also lead to deficiencies/nutrition problems, and that actually the av

I'm not vegan, but the counterargument I've heard is that an unbalanced omnivore diet can also lead to deficiencies/nutrition problems, and that actually the average vegan diet is more balanced overall than the average omnivore diet, so it's unfair to single out vegans when eating a healthy and varied diet is a challenge for everyone. In other words, you should probably be just as worried about your non-vegan friends who eat too much meat, not enough leafy greens, not enough vitamins, etc.

ThomPete 9y ago
How can a vegan diet be more balanced? It lacks diversity which as far as I understand is the primary foundation for good healthy diet. Many different things in not too much quantity.
- pmichaud 9y ago
  Strictly speaking vegan is obviously a more limited subset of omnivore. But in a practical sense, it would surprise me if vegans didn't have more variety in their diet. I was vegetarian for almost a decade, basically my 20s, and what became clear immediately was that I had to figure out different stuff to eat. Default food wouldn't work anymore, so I have to branch out a lot and find foods that I would've never thought about before. I think my experience is relatively common. That having been said, it IS easier to have a deficient diet, if you're not paying attention. "Carbitarian" is what some people call veg-ns who just hork down pasta, bread, and whatever other unhealthy nonfood is technically animal-free. So I think it's possible that veg-ns have a more diverse diet on average, and that they also are statistically more likely to have deficiencies (something like a bimodal distribution). Obviously, these are empirical questions.
  - Moto7451 9y ago
    I think you mean to say that veganism is a subset of vegetarianism? Omnivores by definition eat animal products. I'm typically vegetarian to suit my own wacky body chemistry and slow metabolism (tldr; lowered/normalized my blood pressure, cholesterol, lost weight etc by diet changes and exercise) and would like to underline the point you're making about finding dietary substitutes. Protein consumption was the hardest thing for me to adjust back into nominal ranges. It's pretty easy to overconsume carbs (carbitarianism) on the way to getting the 50-100g of protein needed for a typical semi-active to active day.
    - nradov 9y ago
      Has your slow metabolism been confirmed by lab tests? Many people seem to think they have a slow metabolism but very few actually do.
      - Moto7451 9y ago
        I suppose I don't fit the scientific definition of a slow metabolism. I clock in at around 1800 calories per day, which is within a nominal range. That said, I cannot eat the way the rest of those around me can without gaining huge amounts of weight. I've lost 100lbs and it took a lot of time to figure out that I just can't eat the same as my friends do and maintain a healthy weight.
        nradov 9y ago
        Most likely you're overestimating how much your friends actually eat. Unless you're monitoring them 24/7 then you don't really know for sure.
  - Tharkun 9y ago
    I suppose it's possible for vegans/vegetarians to eat better/more balanced than many omnivores, purely because they're much more likely to be taking an active interest in nutrition. The folks who eat frozen pizza every night probably aren't the most balanced eaters.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    But in the context of this article, the point was simply that if you eat more or less anything you will get most of the different general food types you need (salad, protein, fibers, carbs) and thus you will most likely get what you need. Vegans trying to find substitutes for some of those general food types doesn't mean they end up being more diverse just that they have to look at more alternatives but the body doesn't really care if you eat iceberg and romain and baby spinach it cares that you eat fibers and protein and minerals. I am not an expert it just seems to me that by not excluding things from your diet like meat you are getting a for much less (eating meat gives you not just protein but ex. iron) Things that other protein substitutes doesn't necessarily give you.
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  For example milk (calcium) prevents iron absorption, so you might say a person eats meats hence his diet is balanced and rich in iron but he will suffer from iron defiency if too much milk is consumed. Also there is no natural source of B12 in commercial farm meat and fish since they are not grass fed and not ocean plankton fed. But the feed they get does have B12 exactly like a proper vegan diet where the person takes pills .
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > For example milk (calcium) prevents iron absorption, so you might say a person eats meats hence his diet is balanced and rich in iron but he will suffer from iron efficiency if too much milk is consumed Calcium can inhibit iron absorption, but not to this degree. A typical healthy individual will still be able to absorb iron from dairy products, because dairy products themselves contain iron. Where it becomes a problem is for people who are already anemic. Remember that the body doesn't need very much iron in the first place, since it's capable of recycling it. It only needs to replace the small amount that's lost in this cycle. And furthermore, the body's absorption of iron is already pretty inefficient, so the effects of naturally-occurring calcium in dairy aren't this extreme.
- Mikeb85 9y ago
  > How can a vegan diet be more balanced? It lacks diversity which as far as I understand is the primary foundation for good healthy diet. How does it lack diversity? There's far, far more non-animal foodstuffs in the world than types of meat/fish... Also, most traditional and 'varied' diets contain far more vegetable matter than meat anyway.
  - pferde 9y ago
    Yes, and all those non-animal foodstuffs are available also to normal people, in addition to additional foodstuffs which come from animals. Vegan diet is less diverse by definition, as they merely limit themselves, they do not eat anything non-vegans can't. Simple maths.
    - Mikeb85 9y ago
      Saying it's 'less diverse' isn't the same as saying it 'lacks diversity'...
      - shitgoose 9y ago
        is it?
    - sdenton4 9y ago
      You're confusing there space of possibilities with the space of what's actually consumed. An omnivore's diet is not more diverse if they only eat pepperoni pizza.
      - charlesdm 9y ago
        I'm not vegan, but isn't it possible to live healthy, as a vegan?
        ChristianBundy 9y ago
        Very much so. Notice that none of the "vegans are unhealthy" claims are substantiated by any evidence.
scythe 9y ago
It's actually pretty rare to eat too much meat. Meat is expensive, despite subsidies. Unless you deliberately go out of your way to eat lots of meat, you won't be eating that much. Furthermore, the combination of meats, vitamin D-added milk, and enriched cereals, the latter two courtesy of the FDA who have centuries of history fighting malnutrition, and who for example introduced hominy grits to the South to combat pellagra, tends to hit everybody's basic nutrition requirements with the exceptions of dietary fiber, vitamin C, and potassium. While good health is still dependent on eating a variety of vegetables, it's important to give the US food system its due -- it produced pretty good results before the modern Age of Excessive Sweeteners.
- abrowne 9y ago
  > the FDA who have centuries of history fighting malnutrition Founded in 1906.
  - darkmarmot 9y ago
    Well, 1.11 centuries. It's plural!
pilsetnieks 9y ago
He mentioned that they're not very careful about what they eat. Regardless of the diet, you have to pay attention to what you're consuming, otherwise you're going to have problems.

ThomPete 9y ago

How can a vegan diet be more balanced? It lacks diversity which as far as I understand is the primary foundation for good healthy diet. Many different things in not too much quantity.

pmichaud 9y ago
Strictly speaking vegan is obviously a more limited subset of omnivore. But in a practical sense, it would surprise me if vegans didn't have more variety in their diet. I was vegetarian for almost a decade, basically my 20s, and what became clear immediately was that I had to figure out different stuff to eat. Default food wouldn't work anymore, so I have to branch out a lot and find foods that I would've never thought about before. I think my experience is relatively common. That having been said, it IS easier to have a deficient diet, if you're not paying attention. "Carbitarian" is what some people call veg-ns who just hork down pasta, bread, and whatever other unhealthy nonfood is technically animal-free. So I think it's possible that veg-ns have a more diverse diet on average, and that they also are statistically more likely to have deficiencies (something like a bimodal distribution). Obviously, these are empirical questions.
- Moto7451 9y ago
  I think you mean to say that veganism is a subset of vegetarianism? Omnivores by definition eat animal products. I'm typically vegetarian to suit my own wacky body chemistry and slow metabolism (tldr; lowered/normalized my blood pressure, cholesterol, lost weight etc by diet changes and exercise) and would like to underline the point you're making about finding dietary substitutes. Protein consumption was the hardest thing for me to adjust back into nominal ranges. It's pretty easy to overconsume carbs (carbitarianism) on the way to getting the 50-100g of protein needed for a typical semi-active to active day.
  - nradov 9y ago
    Has your slow metabolism been confirmed by lab tests? Many people seem to think they have a slow metabolism but very few actually do.
    - Moto7451 9y ago
      I suppose I don't fit the scientific definition of a slow metabolism. I clock in at around 1800 calories per day, which is within a nominal range. That said, I cannot eat the way the rest of those around me can without gaining huge amounts of weight. I've lost 100lbs and it took a lot of time to figure out that I just can't eat the same as my friends do and maintain a healthy weight.
      - nradov 9y ago
        Most likely you're overestimating how much your friends actually eat. Unless you're monitoring them 24/7 then you don't really know for sure.
- Tharkun 9y ago
  I suppose it's possible for vegans/vegetarians to eat better/more balanced than many omnivores, purely because they're much more likely to be taking an active interest in nutrition. The folks who eat frozen pizza every night probably aren't the most balanced eaters.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  But in the context of this article, the point was simply that if you eat more or less anything you will get most of the different general food types you need (salad, protein, fibers, carbs) and thus you will most likely get what you need. Vegans trying to find substitutes for some of those general food types doesn't mean they end up being more diverse just that they have to look at more alternatives but the body doesn't really care if you eat iceberg and romain and baby spinach it cares that you eat fibers and protein and minerals. I am not an expert it just seems to me that by not excluding things from your diet like meat you are getting a for much less (eating meat gives you not just protein but ex. iron) Things that other protein substitutes doesn't necessarily give you.
myth_drannon 9y ago
For example milk (calcium) prevents iron absorption, so you might say a person eats meats hence his diet is balanced and rich in iron but he will suffer from iron defiency if too much milk is consumed. Also there is no natural source of B12 in commercial farm meat and fish since they are not grass fed and not ocean plankton fed. But the feed they get does have B12 exactly like a proper vegan diet where the person takes pills .
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > For example milk (calcium) prevents iron absorption, so you might say a person eats meats hence his diet is balanced and rich in iron but he will suffer from iron efficiency if too much milk is consumed Calcium can inhibit iron absorption, but not to this degree. A typical healthy individual will still be able to absorb iron from dairy products, because dairy products themselves contain iron. Where it becomes a problem is for people who are already anemic. Remember that the body doesn't need very much iron in the first place, since it's capable of recycling it. It only needs to replace the small amount that's lost in this cycle. And furthermore, the body's absorption of iron is already pretty inefficient, so the effects of naturally-occurring calcium in dairy aren't this extreme.
Mikeb85 9y ago
> How can a vegan diet be more balanced? It lacks diversity which as far as I understand is the primary foundation for good healthy diet. How does it lack diversity? There's far, far more non-animal foodstuffs in the world than types of meat/fish... Also, most traditional and 'varied' diets contain far more vegetable matter than meat anyway.
- pferde 9y ago
  Yes, and all those non-animal foodstuffs are available also to normal people, in addition to additional foodstuffs which come from animals. Vegan diet is less diverse by definition, as they merely limit themselves, they do not eat anything non-vegans can't. Simple maths.
  - Mikeb85 9y ago
    Saying it's 'less diverse' isn't the same as saying it 'lacks diversity'...
    - shitgoose 9y ago
      is it?
  - sdenton4 9y ago
    You're confusing there space of possibilities with the space of what's actually consumed. An omnivore's diet is not more diverse if they only eat pepperoni pizza.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      I'm not vegan, but isn't it possible to live healthy, as a vegan?
      - ChristianBundy 9y ago
        Very much so. Notice that none of the "vegans are unhealthy" claims are substantiated by any evidence.

scythe 9y ago

It's actually pretty rare to eat too much meat. Meat is expensive, despite subsidies. Unless you deliberately go out of your way to eat lots of meat, you won't be eating that much. Furthermore, the combination of meats, vitamin D-added milk, and enriched cereals, the latter two courtesy of the FDA who have centuries of history fighting malnutrition, and who for example introduced hominy grits to the South to combat pellagra, tends to hit everybody's basic nutrition requirements with the exceptions of dietary fiber, vitamin C, and potassium. While good health is still dependent on eating a variety of vegetables, it's important to give the US food system its due -- it produced pretty good results before the modern Age of Excessive Sweeteners.

abrowne 9y ago
> the FDA who have centuries of history fighting malnutrition Founded in 1906.
- darkmarmot 9y ago
  Well, 1.11 centuries. It's plural!

pilsetnieks 9y ago

He mentioned that they're not very careful about what they eat. Regardless of the diet, you have to pay attention to what you're consuming, otherwise you're going to have problems.