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Britain’s European allies desert it in a vote at the UN

67 points by vinnyglennon 9y ago

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Sounds like someone might get benefit out of the Leave voters, IMO misdirected, notion of sovereignty. They can hardly argue (consistently) it's wrong for small island to get full self-determination when this was one of the major positives being floated for Brexit.
- calpaterson 9y ago
  I have a sneaking suspicion few British voters even know the Chagos Archipelago exists.
  - Someone 9y ago
    I would think many more would know Diego Garcia exists (both among British voters and world-wide). Most of them probably would also know it's an island somewhere far away from main land masses. In that sense, they would know the Chagos Archipelago exists, even they don't know its name, or that it is an archipelago.
nimish 9y ago
FYI, this is what the ".io" CCTLD stands for.
- mthoms 9y ago
  Indeed. Here's a fascinating article with (some of) the back story of the islands and the TLD: http://citizen-ex.com/stories/io http://citizen-ex.com/stories/io
kome 9y ago
I feel really bad for Chagossians people; I didn't know about their struggle. Deporting 1,500 individuals is simply crazy, who decided that simply didn't consider Chagossians to be humans. I hope the UK/US Army will leave for good.
- dghughes 9y ago
  I live on an island in Canada an I can say people who live on islands feel close to each other. It's like a small town but at another level again since you are isolated from others. It would be terrible to have families moved they eventually lose contact with their neighbours in a city like Crawley. The environment for the people born in a tropical island compared to cold urban Crawley would have been depressing.
  - weinzierl 9y ago
    > ...I can say people who live on islands feel close to each other The Chagossians were deported by the UK, so technically some islanders deported other islanders.
    - dghughes 9y ago
      Ha! I never thought of that.
avinash 9y ago
I am Mauritian and the whole country is incredibly proud of this achievement, small David against huge Goliath. Of course, we also know that there is still a long way to go before the conclusion.
- 5_minutes 9y ago
  Right on, good for you guys.
panzer_wyrm 9y ago
Britain argued that it should be resolved bilaterally. America took its side. But with its State Department understaffed and its president widely distrusted, its lobbying effort failed. Britain’s diplomacy was no better; the name of Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, “raised an eyebrow or a laugh each time it was mentioned”, according to one person present. In an inauspicious sign for “Empire 2.0”, the nickname British officials use for their plan to forge closer links with the Commonwealth, the vast majority of Britain’s former colonies backed Mauritius or abstained. The money quote. Some chickens seems to be circling near the roost.
arca_vorago 9y ago
I had buddies who spent time in Diego Garcia, before I knew how it came to be a US base. I think it's horrible how it was aquired and we should immediately make moves towards reperations and departure, or at least agreement to payments for lease. I'm tired of my country increasingly acting like an empire of force when that goes against everything I was taught we should stand for. More than that though, is the inability to admit wrongdoing and learn from past mistakes, at least in public. Recently the state department has been undergoing some upheaval due to the tumultous new POTUS. One was complaining to me about it and my response was they they should have gotten rid of the war-criminal Kissinger/Zbrenzski group a long time ago and they might have avoided some of this blowback. Too many DoS people essentially worship Kissinger as the inventor of American diplomacy. Hogwash I say. It's time for real leadership in the executive to take control of the state department and other agencies and reduce what I call Machiavellian realpolitik run amok. Here is Kissingers comment on Diego Garcia. “There are only 90,000 people out there. Who gives a damn?”
- ethbro 9y ago
  > I'm tired of my country increasingly acting like an empire of force when that goes against everything I was taught we should stand for. "Increasingly"? We're doing pretty well as opposed to historical standards. Hell, we created Panama as a nation for strategic military reasons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_interventions_of_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_interventions_of_th...
- devnonymous 9y ago
  > I'm tired of my country increasingly acting like an empire of force when that goes against everything I was taught we should stand for. What surprises me everytime I interact with Americans is their naivety in their assumption that the leaders / politicians are any different or even better than those from any other country. Their belief that somehow these people who fight tremendous odds (almost certainly not ethically) to get to where they are, managed to do this while being true to any kind of moral compass. For that sort of thing to be true would necessitate that Americans be essentially different than other humans. IOW, I am surprised that Americans do not realise that the only difference between POTUS and Kim Jong Un or Saddam or... Is what they can reasonably get away with doing.
Kequc 9y ago
So it's an issue of the sovereignty of the islands then? The argument I'm hearing is that due to the UK leaning in favour of sovereignty, that it can no longer continue to, by default, control the islands? So allow the islands to hold a vote. This seems like it was a vote held by other countries on whether or not they supported these islands not being allowed sovereignty even if they wanted it.
- ithkuil 9y ago
  All inhabitants have been forcefully evicted. There is nobody who could vote there. It's administered from an office in London. The UK has rented the biggest island to the US army. Once a year officials from UK and the US military gather to discuss issues about the base, and they meet in London to do so. Under these circumstances it's clear why the legal fight is fought by far away.
dalbasal 9y ago
The UN's one big jab is to prevent nuclear war by limiting border disputes. I'm not sure what the value of them weighing in on this case. What happens if/when the ICJ issues its non-binding ruling that the Islands needs to change hands? If the UK doesn't leave, does it become an illegal occupation? I think it diminishes the UN's authority to have it issue edicts that are not going to be implemented or enforced.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > I think it diminishes the UN's authority to have it issue edicts that are not going to be implemented or enforced. The UN does have enforcement (by the way of international military missions), unfortunately as long as either the US or the Russians/China have veto powers this enforcement will only be used against African or former-Yugoslavian countries.
- awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
  > If the UK doesn't leave, does it become an illegal occupation? It was always an illegal occupation. > I think it diminishes the UN's authority to have it issue edicts that are not going to be implemented or enforced. If not the UN, then who? How are these people suppose to get their stolen land back?
leke 9y ago
I saw a documentary on how Britain deported the island's natives. It was pretty sick. They killed all their dogs, then told them, get on this boat or you're next. After many years, what was left of the islanders won a court case against Britain who then turned around and said, good luck trying to get to your island in one piece. They continue to rent the island to the US.
- ficklepickle 9y ago
  So Kissinger said there was "only" 90 000 people there, and 1500 are in Britain... What happened to the other 88 500 people? Edit: They went to Mauritius and the Seychelles, apparently https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia
tomohawk 9y ago
Diego Garcia is a very strategic place. If the US/UK were to leave, who would take it over? Most likely the Chinese would move in. There's no really good answer there. The EU taking the stance that they are taking is really kind of counterproductive. They know nothing is going to come of it and they waste an opportunity for reproachment with the UK. They also just make the brexit case even stronger, confirming what many say about the euros not really having the best interests of the UK (or even themselves) in mind in many instances.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pinpeliponni 9y ago
  Why would EU care? As UK is not part of Europe anymore, they really have no reason to care about .io islands...
  - MistahKoala 9y ago
    > UK is not part of Europe anymore This is news to the rest of the world.
    - paulnechifor 9y ago
      Europe and the EU are getting conflated more and more. It's kind of like how if someone said he's American, you wouldn't assume he's from Brazil, even though technically Brazilians are American since they're from the American continent or continents.
      - MistahKoala 9y ago
        Whilst he's wrong from a geographical perspective, I assumed in good faith that he was talking about 'Europe', the political institution - which he'd still be wrong about. The UK is still part of the EU until it isn't.
      - addicted 9y ago
potlee 9y ago
Thanks EU! The EU is our only hope for sane antidote against a US/UK power monopoly.
- Theodores 9y ago
  There is no US/UK power monopoly. The rest of the world is resurgent and willing not to be brow-beaten into line. I find it hard to believe that the British government have allies. As for British people, sure, friends all over the world, but the British government? I am scratching my head. Apart from the U.S. maybe it is just the Falkland Islands and maybe Gibraltar that are genuine 'allies'. Even the relationship with the U.S. government is a bit strange - the 'special relationship' is something the likes of Tony Blair bark on about but the U.S. government don't use the term so readily, regardless of the intellect of the POTUS. The deal with the E.U. was never on equal terms, e.g. adoption of the Euro or free movement of people, the U.K. was just one of those relatives with special needs that the E.U. had to put up with. Even the Commonwealth is something you never really hear about these days. I doubt the average British citizen/subject can name five members of the Commonwealth correctly. Sure the leaders of Commonwealth countries might curtsy for the Queen but there is no guaranteed backing for what Britain does from any Commonwealth country. The NATO alliance is just a collection of vassal states corrupted and bullied by the U.S. into some 'alliance'. There is no bond between Turkey and the U.K., these 'allies' are just 'allies' because the U.S. wants to have its weapons in Turkey as well as in the U.K. Same applies for the other NATO countries, there is no special love for Blighty just because our soldiers dress up in silly uniforms and play wargames together. Essentially the US/UK governments have lost the respect of the rest of the world, even if there are loyal stooges in place, e.g. those in-bred oiks that claim to be royal family in Saudi Arabia. This lack of respect results in a lack of fear and growing of backbone, hence decisions such as this.
- awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
  Most of the EU abstained. It was non-european countries who mostly voted against the UK.
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> has become indispensable for America’s armed forces, who nickname it “the footprint of freedom” Footprint of freedom? Come on. Why do we have to do that? As a naive little kid, maybe it would make me proud. As a rational adult, it's so cringeworthy and childish and pathetic. Especially when you learn that the island/atoll was basically stolen from the people and the people were forcibly expelled by the british just so that we can play world police.
- mnm1 9y ago
  You know when the word "freedom" is used by Americans, especially American government, it can only refer to oppression, slavery, and war. Basically, the exact opposite. I wouldn't mind all of our crimes against humanity quite as much if we were just honest with ourselves and everyone else about what they are. But it has to be like this because most adults here are dumber than the naive little kid you describe. They don't realize the irony and are actually proud of such things. The mindset you grew out of as a little child is their adult mindset.

67 points by vinnyglennon 9y ago

Sounds like someone might get benefit out of the Leave voters, IMO misdirected, notion of sovereignty. They can hardly argue (consistently) it's wrong for small island to get full self-determination when this was one of the major positives being floated for Brexit.

calpaterson 9y ago
I have a sneaking suspicion few British voters even know the Chagos Archipelago exists.
- Someone 9y ago
  I would think many more would know Diego Garcia exists (both among British voters and world-wide). Most of them probably would also know it's an island somewhere far away from main land masses. In that sense, they would know the Chagos Archipelago exists, even they don't know its name, or that it is an archipelago.

nimish 9y ago

FYI, this is what the ".io" CCTLD stands for.

mthoms 9y ago
Indeed. Here's a fascinating article with (some of) the back story of the islands and the TLD: http://citizen-ex.com/stories/io http://citizen-ex.com/stories/io

kome 9y ago

I feel really bad for Chagossians people; I didn't know about their struggle. Deporting 1,500 individuals is simply crazy, who decided that simply didn't consider Chagossians to be humans. I hope the UK/US Army will leave for good.

dghughes 9y ago
I live on an island in Canada an I can say people who live on islands feel close to each other. It's like a small town but at another level again since you are isolated from others. It would be terrible to have families moved they eventually lose contact with their neighbours in a city like Crawley. The environment for the people born in a tropical island compared to cold urban Crawley would have been depressing.
- weinzierl 9y ago
  > ...I can say people who live on islands feel close to each other The Chagossians were deported by the UK, so technically some islanders deported other islanders.
  - dghughes 9y ago
    Ha! I never thought of that.

avinash 9y ago

I am Mauritian and the whole country is incredibly proud of this achievement, small David against huge Goliath. Of course, we also know that there is still a long way to go before the conclusion.

5_minutes 9y ago
Right on, good for you guys.

panzer_wyrm 9y ago

Britain argued that it should be resolved bilaterally. America took its side. But with its State Department understaffed and its president widely distrusted, its lobbying effort failed. Britain’s diplomacy was no better; the name of Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, “raised an eyebrow or a laugh each time it was mentioned”, according to one person present. In an inauspicious sign for “Empire 2.0”, the nickname British officials use for their plan to forge closer links with the Commonwealth, the vast majority of Britain’s former colonies backed Mauritius or abstained. The money quote. Some chickens seems to be circling near the roost.

arca_vorago 9y ago

I had buddies who spent time in Diego Garcia, before I knew how it came to be a US base. I think it's horrible how it was aquired and we should immediately make moves towards reperations and departure, or at least agreement to payments for lease. I'm tired of my country increasingly acting like an empire of force when that goes against everything I was taught we should stand for. More than that though, is the inability to admit wrongdoing and learn from past mistakes, at least in public. Recently the state department has been undergoing some upheaval due to the tumultous new POTUS. One was complaining to me about it and my response was they they should have gotten rid of the war-criminal Kissinger/Zbrenzski group a long time ago and they might have avoided some of this blowback. Too many DoS people essentially worship Kissinger as the inventor of American diplomacy. Hogwash I say. It's time for real leadership in the executive to take control of the state department and other agencies and reduce what I call Machiavellian realpolitik run amok. Here is Kissingers comment on Diego Garcia. “There are only 90,000 people out there. Who gives a damn?”

ethbro 9y ago
> I'm tired of my country increasingly acting like an empire of force when that goes against everything I was taught we should stand for. "Increasingly"? We're doing pretty well as opposed to historical standards. Hell, we created Panama as a nation for strategic military reasons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_interventions_of_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_interventions_of_th...
devnonymous 9y ago
> I'm tired of my country increasingly acting like an empire of force when that goes against everything I was taught we should stand for. What surprises me everytime I interact with Americans is their naivety in their assumption that the leaders / politicians are any different or even better than those from any other country. Their belief that somehow these people who fight tremendous odds (almost certainly not ethically) to get to where they are, managed to do this while being true to any kind of moral compass. For that sort of thing to be true would necessitate that Americans be essentially different than other humans. IOW, I am surprised that Americans do not realise that the only difference between POTUS and Kim Jong Un or Saddam or... Is what they can reasonably get away with doing.

Kequc 9y ago

So it's an issue of the sovereignty of the islands then? The argument I'm hearing is that due to the UK leaning in favour of sovereignty, that it can no longer continue to, by default, control the islands? So allow the islands to hold a vote. This seems like it was a vote held by other countries on whether or not they supported these islands not being allowed sovereignty even if they wanted it.

ithkuil 9y ago
All inhabitants have been forcefully evicted. There is nobody who could vote there. It's administered from an office in London. The UK has rented the biggest island to the US army. Once a year officials from UK and the US military gather to discuss issues about the base, and they meet in London to do so. Under these circumstances it's clear why the legal fight is fought by far away.

dalbasal 9y ago

The UN's one big jab is to prevent nuclear war by limiting border disputes. I'm not sure what the value of them weighing in on this case. What happens if/when the ICJ issues its non-binding ruling that the Islands needs to change hands? If the UK doesn't leave, does it become an illegal occupation? I think it diminishes the UN's authority to have it issue edicts that are not going to be implemented or enforced.

mschuster91 9y ago
> I think it diminishes the UN's authority to have it issue edicts that are not going to be implemented or enforced. The UN does have enforcement (by the way of international military missions), unfortunately as long as either the US or the Russians/China have veto powers this enforcement will only be used against African or former-Yugoslavian countries.
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> If the UK doesn't leave, does it become an illegal occupation? It was always an illegal occupation. > I think it diminishes the UN's authority to have it issue edicts that are not going to be implemented or enforced. If not the UN, then who? How are these people suppose to get their stolen land back?

leke 9y ago

I saw a documentary on how Britain deported the island's natives. It was pretty sick. They killed all their dogs, then told them, get on this boat or you're next. After many years, what was left of the islanders won a court case against Britain who then turned around and said, good luck trying to get to your island in one piece. They continue to rent the island to the US.

ficklepickle 9y ago
So Kissinger said there was "only" 90 000 people there, and 1500 are in Britain... What happened to the other 88 500 people? Edit: They went to Mauritius and the Seychelles, apparently https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia

tomohawk 9y ago

Diego Garcia is a very strategic place. If the US/UK were to leave, who would take it over? Most likely the Chinese would move in. There's no really good answer there. The EU taking the stance that they are taking is really kind of counterproductive. They know nothing is going to come of it and they waste an opportunity for reproachment with the UK. They also just make the brexit case even stronger, confirming what many say about the euros not really having the best interests of the UK (or even themselves) in mind in many instances.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pinpeliponni 9y ago
Why would EU care? As UK is not part of Europe anymore, they really have no reason to care about .io islands...
- MistahKoala 9y ago
  > UK is not part of Europe anymore This is news to the rest of the world.
  - paulnechifor 9y ago
    Europe and the EU are getting conflated more and more. It's kind of like how if someone said he's American, you wouldn't assume he's from Brazil, even though technically Brazilians are American since they're from the American continent or continents.
    - MistahKoala 9y ago
      Whilst he's wrong from a geographical perspective, I assumed in good faith that he was talking about 'Europe', the political institution - which he'd still be wrong about. The UK is still part of the EU until it isn't.
    - addicted 9y ago

potlee 9y ago

Thanks EU! The EU is our only hope for sane antidote against a US/UK power monopoly.

Theodores 9y ago
There is no US/UK power monopoly. The rest of the world is resurgent and willing not to be brow-beaten into line. I find it hard to believe that the British government have allies. As for British people, sure, friends all over the world, but the British government? I am scratching my head. Apart from the U.S. maybe it is just the Falkland Islands and maybe Gibraltar that are genuine 'allies'. Even the relationship with the U.S. government is a bit strange - the 'special relationship' is something the likes of Tony Blair bark on about but the U.S. government don't use the term so readily, regardless of the intellect of the POTUS. The deal with the E.U. was never on equal terms, e.g. adoption of the Euro or free movement of people, the U.K. was just one of those relatives with special needs that the E.U. had to put up with. Even the Commonwealth is something you never really hear about these days. I doubt the average British citizen/subject can name five members of the Commonwealth correctly. Sure the leaders of Commonwealth countries might curtsy for the Queen but there is no guaranteed backing for what Britain does from any Commonwealth country. The NATO alliance is just a collection of vassal states corrupted and bullied by the U.S. into some 'alliance'. There is no bond between Turkey and the U.K., these 'allies' are just 'allies' because the U.S. wants to have its weapons in Turkey as well as in the U.K. Same applies for the other NATO countries, there is no special love for Blighty just because our soldiers dress up in silly uniforms and play wargames together. Essentially the US/UK governments have lost the respect of the rest of the world, even if there are loyal stooges in place, e.g. those in-bred oiks that claim to be royal family in Saudi Arabia. This lack of respect results in a lack of fear and growing of backbone, hence decisions such as this.
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
Most of the EU abstained. It was non-european countries who mostly voted against the UK.

awkwarddaturtle 9y ago

> has become indispensable for America’s armed forces, who nickname it “the footprint of freedom” Footprint of freedom? Come on. Why do we have to do that? As a naive little kid, maybe it would make me proud. As a rational adult, it's so cringeworthy and childish and pathetic. Especially when you learn that the island/atoll was basically stolen from the people and the people were forcibly expelled by the british just so that we can play world police.

mnm1 9y ago
You know when the word "freedom" is used by Americans, especially American government, it can only refer to oppression, slavery, and war. Basically, the exact opposite. I wouldn't mind all of our crimes against humanity quite as much if we were just honest with ourselves and everyone else about what they are. But it has to be like this because most adults here are dumber than the naive little kid you describe. They don't realize the irony and are actually proud of such things. The mindset you grew out of as a little child is their adult mindset.