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Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police) when something injustice or misfortune happens to other people or the common interest. It is also the non-forgiving attitude when someone makes a dumb mistake. It is selfish and at the same time not wrong. It reflects somewhat in the Shit Town podcast that I listened to lately. I won't go into the details, but personally, I have worked with the local police recently on two separate incidents, and they were surprisingly bad. It was different from my previous experiences when I first moved to the US ten years ago. That "fuck you" attitude is what I experienced and have to deal with every day when I was in Vietnam, my home country. I'm not shocked, or that annoyed to have to deal with it every once in a while, but I feel it wasn't that way when I moved. I feel I get less and less of the extra miles the more I stay in here. I can't help but feel that people are getting stiffer and stiffer somehow. For the context, I am and have been living in the midwest. What's surprising is that I'm not even depressed, and life is getting easier for me professionally, personally, and financially. Something just doesn't feel right. Or maybe I was just romanticizing my early days in the US for me. Or maybe I'm about to have another mid-life crisis.

tcbawo 9y ago
I grew up in a small town in the Midwest and one thing I've noticed is income stratification has had an impact. It used to be more prevalent for your police officer, postman, waitress, or hairdresser to be able to afford to live in your town. Their kids would go to school with your kids, or you might go to the same church. But a lot more families struggle while others have done very well. I see a huge disparity in incomes (even within my extended family). This is amplified by the perception that many achieved this by luck or without hard work. Unfortunately, I think that makes people much less likely to empathize with each other.
- analog31 9y ago
  Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Meanwhile I see people doing actual physical work, and even emotionally hard work such as teachers, police, etc. And it is virtually assured by our society that they will be less affluent than me, despite working a lot harder.
  - throwaway399 9y ago
    I guess my history is almost opposite while achieving similar results. However, I get bunched in the same group and expected to feel privileged and guilty. I grew up in another country and went to end of junior + high school in a US school in the inner city where nobody studied in my class except for me. 65% of the class never graduated. My parents, although very educated in our home country never paid for school and worked very bad jobs initially here such as postal service worker and person who poses census questions. Although I never did particularly well in school in my home country, I did extremely well in the US because everyone else wasn't doing anything. I was ranked 10th in a graduating class of 900 students and did well on the SATs except for the English section. However, I got into many fights to protect my image in school or things would have gotten worse for me there. This resulted in not being able to get into decent colleges since for whatever reason that is reflected on your "record". Finally, this apathetic behavior of my classmates and friends transformed me a little and i did poorly first couple of years of college. However, impending struggles with job market made me get back to studying. I took more loans to pay for my undergrad + masters and graduated with a decent GPA + research. Then got a job in software and now almost finished paying off loans. Let me describe what high school life is like in inner city public high schools: People growing up in inner cities are treated like animals in the cafeteria and elsewhere. There are police officers with guns. There are literal metal bars on the windows and only plastic utensils are allowed in cafeteria. Fights happen where everyone jumps on the tables and cheers on. There are metal chains on doors for students not to escape midway during school day. There are metal detectors at the entrance in case students bring guns. You can go to the bathroom during class only 5 times in 6 months. You are taught how to add fractions in grade 10 math class. Guidance counselors never help you and always try to do the least amount of work possible. I had to talk to the principal to make them let me take a math test to test out of elementary school math. Had to switch math classes to get a math teacher to let me go to a math olympiad. The experience for me closely matched what American movies would show prisons are like. The students themselves think "nerds" are incredibly uncool and the coolest people are rappers + sports stars. I think median amount of time people spent doing homework there is about 0 seconds. Almost everyone constantly talks during class and you can barely hear the teacher. After escaping this circus, I'm expected to feel sympathy for some of the people who were my classmates. So while I still think I got lucky in terms of intelligence, the solution to this problem is to change the culture. For example, in my old country, there is literally no commonly used word for "nerds" and people who get good grades are considered cool. Additionally, going to college for vast majority of students especially those who come from high schools like mine is a waste of time. There should be trade schools. There should be a major high school reform. People who act like prisoners should be put in some sort of boarding school so they stop poisoning the well for others. People who participate in a fight by the virtue of being attacked by others shouldn't get detentions. It should be explained to their parents that this behavior is completely not OK. Media should stop idolizing singers + sports players. In fact, MTV programming should be completely remade into a subtle pro-education propaganda channel. Cancer like Jerry Springer et al should be canceled. It is totally possible to graduate from these high schools and do well. The problem is not money, but culture. Privilege has _nothing_ to do with it since tons of people in much much poorer countries with schools that have a lot fewer funds do a lot better. I feel like most people don't understand what American education/school culture is really like in inner cities and what students are really like who go there. Here are a couple of movies that somewhat match my experience: The Class (2008) - French film but similar (milder) situation. Kids (1995) - Very accurate but little to do with education.
l_t 9y ago
I notice this as well. I think a lot of it comes down to modern society being so complex that most people are unwilling or unable to do anything "extra" like that, at least not regularly. Not only that, but companies and governments are so complex that they resort to bureaucracy as a way to attempt to make things predictable. Every action people take is driven by such a complex web of incentives these days, that risk-aversion is often seen as the pragmatic option. Having said that, I will say that I am often pleasantly surprised by how thoughtful and considerate people can be to each other in general. But I do think that risk-averse "fuck you" treatment is on the rise, especially when dealing with people at work being asked to make difficult decisions. Risk aversion is corporate policy.
- mowenz 9y ago
  Just a different perspective to answer this (and I am open to being wrong): competition b/w societies is decreasing. We live in an increasingly bureaucratic, interconnected, globalized world, and I think it is an undiscussed reason for this. The incentives and disincentives to care for your neighbour or not, or to care for your group, decreased, and it will keep decreasing if this trend continues.
petra 9y ago
Well, research is showing a huge decline(40%) in empathy between 2000-2010: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201005/shocker-empathy-dropped-40-in-college-students-2000 https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201005/shocke... The article mentions few of the possible core reasons: a large decline in face to face time which is being replaced by the likes of facebook, a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly, brutal competition that's deeply seeping into the culture and strong inequality - whose turn to isolate us. >> What's surprising is that I'm not even depressed, Sure. But that's just your current luck. Statistically we're seeing an increase in depression, anxiety, etc. The sad thing, it's like world war I, we're seeing all those trends(and others) and we know where they are heading, but there doesn't seem anything we can do about it, on the societal level.
- prostoalex 9y ago
  I don't know if "a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly" is a 2000 phenomenon - US in general and West Coast specifically has been defined by rugged individualism historically. But I'd add decline in church attendance to the list of reasons - churches used to be a natural "third space" for people to meet, socialize and have shared experiences leading to some potential societal bonding. Nowadays nominees for societal "third space" beyond residence and work office are local sports, shopping malls or Starbucks, which, contrary to television portrayals of them, don't quite provide social experiences. You actually have to go out of your way to have an offline shared collaborative experience with a group of local people, either by volunteering or joining some one-off clubs like reading groups or moms meetups.
  - kabouseng 9y ago
    Don't forget you get a greater abundance of "meetups" type clubs and meetings than you did a couple of years ago, which can offset the reduction of "third spaces". Ok, meetups are in my experience still a niche / nerdy occurrence but it is getting more and more main stream.
    - Larrikin 9y ago
slackingoff2017 9y ago
You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here. The Midwest is messed up. Almost every major city is having budget problems, increasing unemployment and crime, higher taxes. Industry is leaving or has already left, and the rich people (who proportionally pay most of the taxes) are following. The Midwest used to be known for manufacturing and heavy industry and these are the two segments of the economy hit hardest by globalization. Illinois is the best example of this. It's the only state with a shrinking population, and the average income of people leaving is almost $25,000 more than those moving in. People that can afford to leave easily are jumping ship. The south side collapsed with the steel industry thirty years ago and sent the state into a slow decline. Only the north end of Chicago is even worth visiting these days. The rest of the city and state is functionally bankrupt. If you don't want to move as far there's a couple cities diversified enough to avoid the decline. Madison WI is the best example I can think of. Otherwise do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > ...do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt. On an individual level this might make sense, but if everyone does this, it just amplifies existing problems. In the city you're leaving, inequality would just grow worse, there would be a brain drain, and family support structures would weaken. In the city you're going to, housing costs would go up, and pockets of area would be insulated from the wider reality of economic decline. This would cause areas of the country that strongly vote one way, and the rest of the country would vote the other. Instead of encouraging people to just move, why not encourage people to stay and help those who are experiencing a declining quality of life? It would accomplish more than just leaving to "reputable," aka "rich" cities.
  - okr 9y ago
    Because its like riding a dead horse. I think, there are reasons, why areas go bad, and those reasons will not go away, unless people leave the s* holes. I do not see any obligation to stay, when its bad. So i'd say, its reasonable to go abroad, to abandon home and make something of life, when you have a chance to do it. And later, if you still feel close to your home, you can return and create something that makes sense for you, with confidence and resources. The root causes, why areas went bad, may have died and there might be space and hunger to grow something new. That is at least my colorful narrative. I work with many people from so considered poorer countries. They all miss their homes. But actually no one ever said, they want to go back and build something. :) I think there is no obligation to stay at one place and make it work.
wyager 9y ago
Having lived all over the US, I believe that small homogenous rural towns are the most empathetic/friendly places available. The human brain didn't evolved to form strong, productive social bonds in the presence of millions of people. It seems to wear on people after a while. Whenever I visit little towns in ID/MT/WY/TX I always smile at how nice people are. Unfortunately, those small towns are intellectually understimulating, so you either have to be selective or invent some kind of city I haven't come across yet. The closest I've seen to a friendly large city is actually Hanoi. Maybe the secret sauce is just homogeneity, and small towns are partially just nicer because they're usually more homogenous.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Small, homogenous rural towns aren't so bad if you fit into the culture that is there. You'll always be an outsider, but it'll go well enough. It'll be a bit harder if you seem like an outsider, but if you are normal enough, this'll pass. Lots of folks will act friendly to you in the meantime. However, if you are weird or alternative enough? Perhaps you aren't keen on religion? Or something similar? Yeah, these places can get pretty lonely and some of those folks don't extend their kindness to you... unless someone will see them.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    This is true, but I don't see it as a bad thing. Any community with a solid social structure has a homogeneous culture. This makes communication and social expectations among everyone a lot easier to predict. I think part of the reason bigger cities fail to form a sense of community is because of a lack of a common, positive culture. I think in an attempt to make abnormal people feel comfortable, we've ostracized the majority of normal people in the process.
  - wyager 9y ago
    This is true, but what has the higher net social utility: a system that treats the 1% of social deviants equally at the expense of a loss of social cohesion, or a system that treats the 1% of social deviants poorly while maintaining a friendly social environment for the 99%? The answer isn't immediately obvious, and depends on what degree of deviance the local culture will tolerate, so I could see it going either way. However, I do think the concern is a bit overstated; especially in northern towns, the primary cultural identity shared by the inhabitants would most accurately be described as "outdoorsman" rather than any religious or ethnic affiliation. There's more to it than that, but overall it was pretty accessible as long as you were willing to adapt.
0xbear 9y ago
It's a complex issue. I'm willing to help people who work hard on getting out of bad situations. I'm not willing to solve their problems mostly or completely on my own. That necessarily implies some degree of American individualism in the person looking for help. Without that the helpee sooner or later will run out of luck (and/or "other people's money") no matter what you do.

tcbawo 9y ago

I grew up in a small town in the Midwest and one thing I've noticed is income stratification has had an impact. It used to be more prevalent for your police officer, postman, waitress, or hairdresser to be able to afford to live in your town. Their kids would go to school with your kids, or you might go to the same church. But a lot more families struggle while others have done very well. I see a huge disparity in incomes (even within my extended family). This is amplified by the perception that many achieved this by luck or without hard work. Unfortunately, I think that makes people much less likely to empathize with each other.

analog31 9y ago
Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Meanwhile I see people doing actual physical work, and even emotionally hard work such as teachers, police, etc. And it is virtually assured by our society that they will be less affluent than me, despite working a lot harder.
- throwaway399 9y ago
  I guess my history is almost opposite while achieving similar results. However, I get bunched in the same group and expected to feel privileged and guilty. I grew up in another country and went to end of junior + high school in a US school in the inner city where nobody studied in my class except for me. 65% of the class never graduated. My parents, although very educated in our home country never paid for school and worked very bad jobs initially here such as postal service worker and person who poses census questions. Although I never did particularly well in school in my home country, I did extremely well in the US because everyone else wasn't doing anything. I was ranked 10th in a graduating class of 900 students and did well on the SATs except for the English section. However, I got into many fights to protect my image in school or things would have gotten worse for me there. This resulted in not being able to get into decent colleges since for whatever reason that is reflected on your "record". Finally, this apathetic behavior of my classmates and friends transformed me a little and i did poorly first couple of years of college. However, impending struggles with job market made me get back to studying. I took more loans to pay for my undergrad + masters and graduated with a decent GPA + research. Then got a job in software and now almost finished paying off loans. Let me describe what high school life is like in inner city public high schools: People growing up in inner cities are treated like animals in the cafeteria and elsewhere. There are police officers with guns. There are literal metal bars on the windows and only plastic utensils are allowed in cafeteria. Fights happen where everyone jumps on the tables and cheers on. There are metal chains on doors for students not to escape midway during school day. There are metal detectors at the entrance in case students bring guns. You can go to the bathroom during class only 5 times in 6 months. You are taught how to add fractions in grade 10 math class. Guidance counselors never help you and always try to do the least amount of work possible. I had to talk to the principal to make them let me take a math test to test out of elementary school math. Had to switch math classes to get a math teacher to let me go to a math olympiad. The experience for me closely matched what American movies would show prisons are like. The students themselves think "nerds" are incredibly uncool and the coolest people are rappers + sports stars. I think median amount of time people spent doing homework there is about 0 seconds. Almost everyone constantly talks during class and you can barely hear the teacher. After escaping this circus, I'm expected to feel sympathy for some of the people who were my classmates. So while I still think I got lucky in terms of intelligence, the solution to this problem is to change the culture. For example, in my old country, there is literally no commonly used word for "nerds" and people who get good grades are considered cool. Additionally, going to college for vast majority of students especially those who come from high schools like mine is a waste of time. There should be trade schools. There should be a major high school reform. People who act like prisoners should be put in some sort of boarding school so they stop poisoning the well for others. People who participate in a fight by the virtue of being attacked by others shouldn't get detentions. It should be explained to their parents that this behavior is completely not OK. Media should stop idolizing singers + sports players. In fact, MTV programming should be completely remade into a subtle pro-education propaganda channel. Cancer like Jerry Springer et al should be canceled. It is totally possible to graduate from these high schools and do well. The problem is not money, but culture. Privilege has _nothing_ to do with it since tons of people in much much poorer countries with schools that have a lot fewer funds do a lot better. I feel like most people don't understand what American education/school culture is really like in inner cities and what students are really like who go there. Here are a couple of movies that somewhat match my experience: The Class (2008) - French film but similar (milder) situation. Kids (1995) - Very accurate but little to do with education.

l_t 9y ago

I notice this as well. I think a lot of it comes down to modern society being so complex that most people are unwilling or unable to do anything "extra" like that, at least not regularly. Not only that, but companies and governments are so complex that they resort to bureaucracy as a way to attempt to make things predictable. Every action people take is driven by such a complex web of incentives these days, that risk-aversion is often seen as the pragmatic option. Having said that, I will say that I am often pleasantly surprised by how thoughtful and considerate people can be to each other in general. But I do think that risk-averse "fuck you" treatment is on the rise, especially when dealing with people at work being asked to make difficult decisions. Risk aversion is corporate policy.

mowenz 9y ago
Just a different perspective to answer this (and I am open to being wrong): competition b/w societies is decreasing. We live in an increasingly bureaucratic, interconnected, globalized world, and I think it is an undiscussed reason for this. The incentives and disincentives to care for your neighbour or not, or to care for your group, decreased, and it will keep decreasing if this trend continues.

petra 9y ago

Well, research is showing a huge decline(40%) in empathy between 2000-2010: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201005/shocker-empathy-dropped-40-in-college-students-2000 https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201005/shocke... The article mentions few of the possible core reasons: a large decline in face to face time which is being replaced by the likes of facebook, a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly, brutal competition that's deeply seeping into the culture and strong inequality - whose turn to isolate us. >> What's surprising is that I'm not even depressed, Sure. But that's just your current luck. Statistically we're seeing an increase in depression, anxiety, etc. The sad thing, it's like world war I, we're seeing all those trends(and others) and we know where they are heading, but there doesn't seem anything we can do about it, on the societal level.

prostoalex 9y ago
I don't know if "a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly" is a 2000 phenomenon - US in general and West Coast specifically has been defined by rugged individualism historically. But I'd add decline in church attendance to the list of reasons - churches used to be a natural "third space" for people to meet, socialize and have shared experiences leading to some potential societal bonding. Nowadays nominees for societal "third space" beyond residence and work office are local sports, shopping malls or Starbucks, which, contrary to television portrayals of them, don't quite provide social experiences. You actually have to go out of your way to have an offline shared collaborative experience with a group of local people, either by volunteering or joining some one-off clubs like reading groups or moms meetups.
- kabouseng 9y ago
  Don't forget you get a greater abundance of "meetups" type clubs and meetings than you did a couple of years ago, which can offset the reduction of "third spaces". Ok, meetups are in my experience still a niche / nerdy occurrence but it is getting more and more main stream.
  - Larrikin 9y ago

slackingoff2017 9y ago

You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here. The Midwest is messed up. Almost every major city is having budget problems, increasing unemployment and crime, higher taxes. Industry is leaving or has already left, and the rich people (who proportionally pay most of the taxes) are following. The Midwest used to be known for manufacturing and heavy industry and these are the two segments of the economy hit hardest by globalization. Illinois is the best example of this. It's the only state with a shrinking population, and the average income of people leaving is almost $25,000 more than those moving in. People that can afford to leave easily are jumping ship. The south side collapsed with the steel industry thirty years ago and sent the state into a slow decline. Only the north end of Chicago is even worth visiting these days. The rest of the city and state is functionally bankrupt. If you don't want to move as far there's a couple cities diversified enough to avoid the decline. Madison WI is the best example I can think of. Otherwise do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> ...do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt. On an individual level this might make sense, but if everyone does this, it just amplifies existing problems. In the city you're leaving, inequality would just grow worse, there would be a brain drain, and family support structures would weaken. In the city you're going to, housing costs would go up, and pockets of area would be insulated from the wider reality of economic decline. This would cause areas of the country that strongly vote one way, and the rest of the country would vote the other. Instead of encouraging people to just move, why not encourage people to stay and help those who are experiencing a declining quality of life? It would accomplish more than just leaving to "reputable," aka "rich" cities.
- okr 9y ago
  Because its like riding a dead horse. I think, there are reasons, why areas go bad, and those reasons will not go away, unless people leave the s* holes. I do not see any obligation to stay, when its bad. So i'd say, its reasonable to go abroad, to abandon home and make something of life, when you have a chance to do it. And later, if you still feel close to your home, you can return and create something that makes sense for you, with confidence and resources. The root causes, why areas went bad, may have died and there might be space and hunger to grow something new. That is at least my colorful narrative. I work with many people from so considered poorer countries. They all miss their homes. But actually no one ever said, they want to go back and build something. :) I think there is no obligation to stay at one place and make it work.

wyager 9y ago

Having lived all over the US, I believe that small homogenous rural towns are the most empathetic/friendly places available. The human brain didn't evolved to form strong, productive social bonds in the presence of millions of people. It seems to wear on people after a while. Whenever I visit little towns in ID/MT/WY/TX I always smile at how nice people are. Unfortunately, those small towns are intellectually understimulating, so you either have to be selective or invent some kind of city I haven't come across yet. The closest I've seen to a friendly large city is actually Hanoi. Maybe the secret sauce is just homogeneity, and small towns are partially just nicer because they're usually more homogenous.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Small, homogenous rural towns aren't so bad if you fit into the culture that is there. You'll always be an outsider, but it'll go well enough. It'll be a bit harder if you seem like an outsider, but if you are normal enough, this'll pass. Lots of folks will act friendly to you in the meantime. However, if you are weird or alternative enough? Perhaps you aren't keen on religion? Or something similar? Yeah, these places can get pretty lonely and some of those folks don't extend their kindness to you... unless someone will see them.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  This is true, but I don't see it as a bad thing. Any community with a solid social structure has a homogeneous culture. This makes communication and social expectations among everyone a lot easier to predict. I think part of the reason bigger cities fail to form a sense of community is because of a lack of a common, positive culture. I think in an attempt to make abnormal people feel comfortable, we've ostracized the majority of normal people in the process.
- wyager 9y ago
  This is true, but what has the higher net social utility: a system that treats the 1% of social deviants equally at the expense of a loss of social cohesion, or a system that treats the 1% of social deviants poorly while maintaining a friendly social environment for the 99%? The answer isn't immediately obvious, and depends on what degree of deviance the local culture will tolerate, so I could see it going either way. However, I do think the concern is a bit overstated; especially in northern towns, the primary cultural identity shared by the inhabitants would most accurately be described as "outdoorsman" rather than any religious or ethnic affiliation. There's more to it than that, but overall it was pretty accessible as long as you were willing to adapt.

0xbear 9y ago

It's a complex issue. I'm willing to help people who work hard on getting out of bad situations. I'm not willing to solve their problems mostly or completely on my own. That necessarily implies some degree of American individualism in the person looking for help. Without that the helpee sooner or later will run out of luck (and/or "other people's money") no matter what you do.