7 ms·

>Nope. These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. To be fair, even an asshole may show some restraint when they have a clear understanding of c

>Nope. These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. To be fair, even an asshole may show some restraint when they have a clear understanding of consequences. Thinking their money buys them immunity from consequence is an enabler as they don't believe they have the slightest need for this kind of rational self-interest. You are both right, an asshole is an asshole as you suggest, but even so, assholes are worse when they think they won't face consequences as the poster your replied to implied.

tajen 9y ago
Men need to work hard to jail those assholes, here's why: They are the reason why men are described as generally threatening, discrediting and imposing huge constraints in advance on all men who show proper social restraint and respect for women.
- malandrew 9y ago
  I wonder how many innocent people we'll end up condemning with this posture. It's not like history lacks any examples that demonstrates that this is exactly what happens when you get tough and prosecutorial. You're pretty much sanctioning a pitchfork and torch attitude and that evolves into mobs that are often wrong. These days it feels like we've learn nothing from stories like the Scarlet Letter that describe a time from our history where we treated women how you now propose that we treat men. Neither gender deserves this.
  - ShabbosGoy 9y ago
    > You're pretty much sanctioning a pitchfork and torch attitude and that evolves into mobs that are often wrong. What you are seeing is the decline of rational and logical thinking. No one wants to think critically anymore, because smart phones reduce available cognitive resources. So you end up in situations where an inflammatory, poorly researched article emotionally hijacks the brain of a person who would have normally been capable of rational thinking. I'm not saying that's the case here, but there are numerous cases where outrage porn has ruined the lives of innocent people.
  - zo1 9y ago
    I wonder how many innocent people we've already condemned with this attitude.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Men aren't going to be on the front line of this for the same reason white people aren't on the front line of combating racism [0]: even if we don't do awful things one side effect of which is to reinforce privilege, we still benefit from that privilege. A woman seeking funding has to worry about all the things a man seeking funding has to worry about, plus she has to deal with being pressured into sex. That's not great for society, but it is an advantage for men. [0] as a white man, it is my privilege to make sweeping statements about whites and men b^)
- uxp 9y ago
  While I get and understand your sentiment, the problem is that being an asshole and a creep isn't illegal in itself. If some male VC groped a female founder in the course of trying to set up a funding deal, then sure, press charges and make it right, but texting a founder "Why are you still with your boyfriend/partner/girlfriend? We should go out for drinks, I'm so much better than him" is just wrong, but not criminal. As much as I would like to see punishment for clearly abusive and shitty behavior like this article describes, 90% of the time it comes down to character profiles as this thread explains. Even if it found its way into court, the defense would almost certainly try to be framed as a misunderstanding. Instead of punishing and potentially ruining lives for what is sounding like thought-crime, lets just get men off the pedestal and put them on the same goddamned level as women. A woman shouldn't have to defend her reputation for not being slutty if she gets groped, assaulted or raped, and more importantly shouldn't have to fear retaliation for accusing someone of being not just an asshole, but a dangerous asshole.
BoiledCabbage 9y ago
I think it's important to distinguish that these aren't people who are necessarily assholes to everyone. They have plenty of friends and acquaintances who would never believe they'd do something like this. And others who upon hearing it, would've assumed it was a harmless misunderstanding. I think one of the larger problems that society is struggling with is the idea that two different people can be in very similar proximity, interact with the same people and yet one can have to suffer through radically different (and horrible) treatment. The reason I believe this is so difficult, is the other person legitimately think "I know that person, I know that place, I've gone through that and I've never seen anything remotely close to that." And reasonably conclude that it didn't happen. It's difficult to accept that there is an entire world that they don't ever experience. But we all need a find a way to account for this, because too many people go through beimg mistreated and their concerns are simply dismissed.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- adamsea 9y ago
  How does their niceness in other situations matter?
  - watwut 9y ago
    It proves that "being able to get away with it" is significant factor.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    It matters because it creates a situation where one set of people have an awful experience with someone, and another set all say "well, in my experience he's perfectly nice and would certainly never do something like that..."
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      I suppose the fact that they are assholes in one situation but behave respectably in another is what makes this discrimination? If they were assholes to everyone then.... I think it is an interesting thing I see with successful people that they often attribute too much of there success to their personalities and too little to luck and circumstances. This makes them believe their own bullshit about how great they are, and how bad other people are.
curun1r 9y ago
The other part of the situation which we're not hearing and are unlikely to ever hear are the cases where the interest was somewhat mutual. Given the billions of dollars at stake and the fame that comes with startup glory, I don't think it's a stretch to believe there are some female founders that try to use their sexuality to their advantage. Perhaps I'm naive, but given how blatant some of the stories have been, I wonder whether these men didn't arrive at their apparent level of bluntness without having gone through a few rounds of being more subtle and moving a lot slower. I'm willing to bet that these men have been somewhat conditioned into this level of behavior. Don't get me wrong...the behaviors in these accusations are reprehensible and, even if the interest was entirely mutual, it would piss me off to no end if I were an investor in any of these funds that the managers were using my money to pursue women or generally anything other than trying to invest in the most promising companies. Even if they didn't have an obligation to the women pitching to them or common decency, which they do, they still have an responsibility to their investors which they completely violated. But if we're going to be consistent, we need to call out anyone who brings anything sexual into what should be a strictly business setting, and I'd bet there are people on both sides of the pitch who've done that.
- adamsea 9y ago
  Intellectual consistency would require acknowledging the systematic repression of women in western history (not being able to vote, etc), and thus, the effects of what is still a patriarchial culture as often as not. In other words, your argument attempts to ignore simple historical facts which you can verify easily on Wikipedia.
  - curun1r 9y ago
    Where did I ignore that? I called their behavior reprehensible. I'm just saying that it's unlikely the behavior exists in a vacuum and that things are never as black and white as they're made out to be. Historical oppression doesn't justify questionable behavior. I've seen many instances where women have "dated up" to help their careers. I even saw one instance where a female director dated the CTO and later the CFO to have someone to support her coke habit. Just calling out the men will never truly fix the problem. We need to be giving a consistent message to both sexes. These types of relationships (and expectations of relationships) are not acceptable under any circumstances. Because if it's wrong for men to pressure women but it's okay for women to pursue those men, then there can always be the hope in the back of the man's mind that maybe it's possible.

tajen 9y ago

Men need to work hard to jail those assholes, here's why: They are the reason why men are described as generally threatening, discrediting and imposing huge constraints in advance on all men who show proper social restraint and respect for women.

malandrew 9y ago
I wonder how many innocent people we'll end up condemning with this posture. It's not like history lacks any examples that demonstrates that this is exactly what happens when you get tough and prosecutorial. You're pretty much sanctioning a pitchfork and torch attitude and that evolves into mobs that are often wrong. These days it feels like we've learn nothing from stories like the Scarlet Letter that describe a time from our history where we treated women how you now propose that we treat men. Neither gender deserves this.
- ShabbosGoy 9y ago
  > You're pretty much sanctioning a pitchfork and torch attitude and that evolves into mobs that are often wrong. What you are seeing is the decline of rational and logical thinking. No one wants to think critically anymore, because smart phones reduce available cognitive resources. So you end up in situations where an inflammatory, poorly researched article emotionally hijacks the brain of a person who would have normally been capable of rational thinking. I'm not saying that's the case here, but there are numerous cases where outrage porn has ruined the lives of innocent people.
- zo1 9y ago
  I wonder how many innocent people we've already condemned with this attitude.
jessaustin 9y ago
Men aren't going to be on the front line of this for the same reason white people aren't on the front line of combating racism [0]: even if we don't do awful things one side effect of which is to reinforce privilege, we still benefit from that privilege. A woman seeking funding has to worry about all the things a man seeking funding has to worry about, plus she has to deal with being pressured into sex. That's not great for society, but it is an advantage for men. [0] as a white man, it is my privilege to make sweeping statements about whites and men b^)
uxp 9y ago
While I get and understand your sentiment, the problem is that being an asshole and a creep isn't illegal in itself. If some male VC groped a female founder in the course of trying to set up a funding deal, then sure, press charges and make it right, but texting a founder "Why are you still with your boyfriend/partner/girlfriend? We should go out for drinks, I'm so much better than him" is just wrong, but not criminal. As much as I would like to see punishment for clearly abusive and shitty behavior like this article describes, 90% of the time it comes down to character profiles as this thread explains. Even if it found its way into court, the defense would almost certainly try to be framed as a misunderstanding. Instead of punishing and potentially ruining lives for what is sounding like thought-crime, lets just get men off the pedestal and put them on the same goddamned level as women. A woman shouldn't have to defend her reputation for not being slutty if she gets groped, assaulted or raped, and more importantly shouldn't have to fear retaliation for accusing someone of being not just an asshole, but a dangerous asshole.

BoiledCabbage 9y ago

I think it's important to distinguish that these aren't people who are necessarily assholes to everyone. They have plenty of friends and acquaintances who would never believe they'd do something like this. And others who upon hearing it, would've assumed it was a harmless misunderstanding. I think one of the larger problems that society is struggling with is the idea that two different people can be in very similar proximity, interact with the same people and yet one can have to suffer through radically different (and horrible) treatment. The reason I believe this is so difficult, is the other person legitimately think "I know that person, I know that place, I've gone through that and I've never seen anything remotely close to that." And reasonably conclude that it didn't happen. It's difficult to accept that there is an entire world that they don't ever experience. But we all need a find a way to account for this, because too many people go through beimg mistreated and their concerns are simply dismissed.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
adamsea 9y ago
How does their niceness in other situations matter?
- watwut 9y ago
  It proves that "being able to get away with it" is significant factor.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  It matters because it creates a situation where one set of people have an awful experience with someone, and another set all say "well, in my experience he's perfectly nice and would certainly never do something like that..."
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    I suppose the fact that they are assholes in one situation but behave respectably in another is what makes this discrimination? If they were assholes to everyone then.... I think it is an interesting thing I see with successful people that they often attribute too much of there success to their personalities and too little to luck and circumstances. This makes them believe their own bullshit about how great they are, and how bad other people are.

curun1r 9y ago

The other part of the situation which we're not hearing and are unlikely to ever hear are the cases where the interest was somewhat mutual. Given the billions of dollars at stake and the fame that comes with startup glory, I don't think it's a stretch to believe there are some female founders that try to use their sexuality to their advantage. Perhaps I'm naive, but given how blatant some of the stories have been, I wonder whether these men didn't arrive at their apparent level of bluntness without having gone through a few rounds of being more subtle and moving a lot slower. I'm willing to bet that these men have been somewhat conditioned into this level of behavior. Don't get me wrong...the behaviors in these accusations are reprehensible and, even if the interest was entirely mutual, it would piss me off to no end if I were an investor in any of these funds that the managers were using my money to pursue women or generally anything other than trying to invest in the most promising companies. Even if they didn't have an obligation to the women pitching to them or common decency, which they do, they still have an responsibility to their investors which they completely violated. But if we're going to be consistent, we need to call out anyone who brings anything sexual into what should be a strictly business setting, and I'd bet there are people on both sides of the pitch who've done that.

adamsea 9y ago
Intellectual consistency would require acknowledging the systematic repression of women in western history (not being able to vote, etc), and thus, the effects of what is still a patriarchial culture as often as not. In other words, your argument attempts to ignore simple historical facts which you can verify easily on Wikipedia.
- curun1r 9y ago
  Where did I ignore that? I called their behavior reprehensible. I'm just saying that it's unlikely the behavior exists in a vacuum and that things are never as black and white as they're made out to be. Historical oppression doesn't justify questionable behavior. I've seen many instances where women have "dated up" to help their careers. I even saw one instance where a female director dated the CTO and later the CFO to have someone to support her coke habit. Just calling out the men will never truly fix the problem. We need to be giving a consistent message to both sexes. These types of relationships (and expectations of relationships) are not acceptable under any circumstances. Because if it's wrong for men to pressure women but it's okay for women to pursue those men, then there can always be the hope in the back of the man's mind that maybe it's possible.