16 ms·

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mi

• ronilan 9y ago
  > This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Nope. These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. Never attribute to rational decision making what can be attributed to rotten character.
  • theseatoms 9y ago
    I mean... rotten characters can make rational decisions, to achieve their rotten ends.
  • voidlogic 9y ago
    >Nope. These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. To be fair, even an asshole may show some restraint when they have a clear understanding of consequences. Thinking their money buys them immunity from consequence is an enabler as they don't believe they have the slightest need for this kind of rational self-interest. You are both right, an asshole is an asshole as you suggest, but even so, assholes are worse when they think they won't face consequences as the poster your replied to implied.
    • tajen 9y ago
      Men need to work hard to jail those assholes, here's why: They are the reason why men are described as generally threatening, discrediting and imposing huge constraints in advance on all men who show proper social restraint and respect for women.
      • malandrew 9y ago
        I wonder how many innocent people we'll end up condemning with this posture. It's not like history lacks any examples that demonstrates that this is exactly what happens when you get tough and prosecutorial. You're pretty much sanctioning a pitchfork and torch attitude and that evolves into mobs that are often wrong. These days it feels like we've learn nothing from stories like the Scarlet Letter that describe a time from our history where we treated women how you now propose that we treat men. Neither gender deserves this.
        • ShabbosGoy 9y ago
          > You're pretty much sanctioning a pitchfork and torch attitude and that evolves into mobs that are often wrong. What you are seeing is the decline of rational and logical thinking. No one wants to think critically anymore, because smart phones reduce available cognitive resources. So you end up in situations where an inflammatory, poorly researched article emotionally hijacks the brain of a person who would have normally been capable of rational thinking. I'm not saying that's the case here, but there are numerous cases where outrage porn has ruined the lives of innocent people.
        • zo1 9y ago
          I wonder how many innocent people we've already condemned with this attitude.
      • jessaustin 9y ago
        Men aren't going to be on the front line of this for the same reason white people aren't on the front line of combating racism [0]: even if we don't do awful things one side effect of which is to reinforce privilege, we still benefit from that privilege. A woman seeking funding has to worry about all the things a man seeking funding has to worry about, plus she has to deal with being pressured into sex. That's not great for society, but it is an advantage for men. [0] as a white man, it is my privilege to make sweeping statements about whites and men b^)
  • notjack 9y ago
    Then why does their behavior disproportionately affect women, who have less power to complain about their behavior? If this were entirely an aspect of their character or personality they'd be an asshole to everyone equally, not opportunistically take advantage of people who have less ability to stop them.
    • theseatoms 9y ago
      By your definition of "asshole", are openly bigoted people not assholes because they're not "an asshole to everyone equally"?
      • yawaramin 9y ago
        But that's not the definition that was given: > These people are assholes because they know they can get away with it. So yes, openly bigoted people are assholes. But if they knew their bigotry wouldn't fly, they would at least not be open about it and not be assholes to people.
    • Grustaf 9y ago
      >Then why does their behavior disproportionately affect women I'm sure they use their positions of power in many different ways that affect both men and women, but their sexual advances obviously target women because most of them are straight.
    • js8 9y ago
      > they'd be an asshole to everyone equally I think they often are. But you don't hear about it, because almost no one cares about males at the bottom of the social ladder. At the bottom, men are "valued" (for a lack of a better word) even less than women.
      • jimnotgym 9y ago
        Or perhaps being an asshole to someone in the mailroom because you didn't like the way round a letter was put on your table is not in the same scale of things as trying to coerce someone to have sex with you
  • angstrom 9y ago
    High functioning sociopaths. A person can be an asshole and not know it. A sociopath knows they're not acting within acceptable social norms and hides it. These investors are sociopaths. An asshole will make a comment and not deny it. A sociopath will try to twist it into a seemingly logical action ie "I was just trying to get rid of her because I didn't like her idea." By that logic who knows how many Jehovah's witnesses this person groped and/or fucked.
    • andrepd 9y ago
      >High functioning sociopaths. That's actually a medical/psychiatric diagnosis. I don't really think it applies here (or maybe it does, I don't know, I only know that you can't just throw that casually at run-of-the mill creeps).
      • naasking 9y ago
        I believe OP was referring to the studied fact that leaders and business moguls tend to exhibit many more of the sociopathic check points than the ordinary person.
        • angstrom 9y ago
          Right, you might call these people manipulative, but on a level where they can camouflage their behavior. Bill Cosby for instance could possibly be considered one. His also seems more methodical. What's worse: 60 possible rapes spanning decades or 60 possible rapes spanning a year?
    • TeMPOraL 9y ago
      > By that logic who knows how many Jehovah's witnesses this person groped and/or fucked. I'd love to know what you mean here, because I can't see how this follows anything.
      • mirimir 9y ago
        To get rid of them. Me, I start going on about the benefits of trepanning, and invite them out to the workshop ;)
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • ridruejo 9y ago
    They act that way because the other person is in a vulnerable position. Most of them will shrink pretty fast when confronted by someone who is not. So they are "selective assholes" so to speak.
    • honestoHeminway 9y ago
      kickin downwards lickin upwards, thats the why we all love hierarchical companys so much.
      • TeMPOraL 9y ago
        This works everywhere there is a social hierarchy, starting from extended families in tighter-knit societies.
        • honestoHeminway 9y ago
          The problem is that this sort of hierarchy rewards two abilitys- sliming and kicking - and (if you are good at that) upholding and extending hierarchys.
  • joeyo 9y ago
    Mister Rogers says: But the very same people who are good sometimes Are the very same people who are bad sometimes.
  • everdayimhustln 9y ago
    People aren't archetypes or labels; that's too black & white, un-nuanced thinking. Psychological and sociological reseach proved most people act however they're expected to within a given power dynamic circumstance, except for a few outliers which will go their own way, for anti- or pro-community. This wrong "bad apples" analogy as it applies to police or genocide perpetrators also is dangerous because it's simply untrue. Well meaning people will commit atrocities if directed to by a superior authority figure; the Stanford Prison experiment and the Milgram experiments underscore this. Instead, there must be social and business pressures brought to bear to prevent emboldened behavior with accountability. If there is boundaryless affluenza anarchy, spoiled brats will overtly behave however they wish. If there are consequences, the behavior will be reduced and become covert. There must be constant vigilance on the part of those stakeholders to enforce consistent accountability for professional/personal behavior.
    • bernardlunn 9y ago
      some people are assholes, very few but some
    • snsr 9y ago
      > Instead, there must be social and business pressures brought to bear to prevent emboldened behavior with accountability. Some of the actions described in the article are crimes - these assholes should be prosecuted.
    • gracenotes 9y ago
      Yes. It is a slow, slow decline into the kind of behavior described in the article that could have been stopped or mitigated at any point along the way but wasn't. Not necessarily in terms of how someone is deep down, but in terms of their understanding of how they can/should interact with people around them. Rather than refuse to understand how someone could have gotten there, let's try to understand the assumptions they made along the way. Then rather than pretending we're unaffected by the culture around us, let's see if we share some of those assumptions. If we want to fix things rather than be blindsided by them, these are at least the first steps.
    • throwaway338833 9y ago
  • coldtea 9y ago
    >These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. Never attribute to rational decision making what can be attributed to rotten character. This kind of thinking is even worse than what they did, because it crystalizes them into some of their decisions and deprives them of being human. While their acts are bullying, harassment, etc., this characterization is not that different to labelling a race inferior (or attributing some other characteristic as an unshakeable part of it). Only instead of a race it does that to a person (or a number of persons) based on past behavior. People change, people can behave like assholes in one instance and be sweet and caring in another, and tons of other distinctions. In the end, this type of thinking is what condemns those convicted in the US to inhuman treatment -- the belief that they are incorrigible because of something they did, and as thus deserve only hell.
    • 628C6l0 9y ago
      Strongly agreed. Hitler was psychologically capable of doing what he did because he sincerely believed Jewish people are _morally_ bad.
  • dreamfactory2 9y ago
    It's cultural and power related. SV aready thinks it has 'droit du seigneur' over everybody in the world's data; no surprise to see entitled power dynamics leak into the workplace.
• lawnchair_larry 9y ago
  I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They think confidence is attractive, flattery is wanted, and that women are constantly searching for signals of an Alpha. They also think they're exceptional. They don't understand boundaries, and they don't understand that women have to deal with that shit from other guys who also think that, everywhere they go. Whether it be cat calls at the grocery store or advances at work. I don't know Sacca or McClure, and from their writing and the way they project themselves, I don't think they seem like the type of people I care to spend time around, but it's pretty clear that this is a bad combination of arrogance and ignorance rather than malice. I had to stop reading Sacca's post after the 5th page of him talking about how great he is, but it sounds like he definitely had his Come To Jesus moment and is genuinely remorseful and working on not being an ass. That's a far better outcome than premature ostracization. Save that for the Bill Cosbys. In order to make progress, I think it is important to recognize this distinction. There are no doubt some actual predators out there, but they need to be dealt with very differently than the dumbasses. I say that in part as a recovering dumbass myself, and as someone who faced accusations of malice and manipulation (in matters completely unrelated to women) when that was absolutely not the case. Hanlon's Razor and all.
  • haikuginger 9y ago
    > Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. At a certain point, one has to believe that another's actions are evil, even if that evil is unwitting. One mustn't actively choose to be "evil and predatory" to be so in fact.
    • stcredzero 9y ago
      At a certain point, one has to believe that another's actions are evil, even if that evil is unwitting. One mustn't actively choose to be "evil and predatory" to be so in fact. So something can become so horrible, that even a mistaken action should be defined as evil? Sorry, but that sounds wrong, and itself willfully vengeful. In that case, shouldn't we just do away with manslaughter and just say everyone who has killed someone is a murderer?
• epalmer 9y ago
  I wonder how many people in power or have strong influence are psychopaths or sociopaths. I've had the misfortune to observe a psychopath in the workplace and in this case they touch people a lot. They touch people of the opposite sex more than same sex but they touch a lot of people. I wonder what is being said behind closed doors. I have friend who is an employment lawyer. When I first asked her what she does she said "I keep old white men out of trouble". How sad. Edit fixed typo
  • benevol 9y ago
    It actually goes in both directions: Statistics have shown for a while now that psychopaths or sociopaths are drawn to positions of power and are therefor overrepresented in those positions. On the other hand, excessive power (== money) often brings the worst out of us, as power appeals to our (sick/immature) need to dominate those around us (on a personal or even global scale). Domination can act like a drug. And once the brain is hooked on that drug, it's hard to go clean again. Excessive power (== money) takes a lot of maturity to be handled ethically. Obviously, a lot of people fail hard. Which is why our society should fight any type of inequality until it's completely gone.
    • jimnotgym 9y ago
      I am reminded of the Stanford prison experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
    • thehardsphere 9y ago
      > Which is why our society should fight any type of inequality until it's completely gone. I don't think this actually follows from the prior premises you put forth. If I'm the 10x programmer, do I need to have my performance handicapped because some psychopaths exist somewhere in the world? That's a kind of inequality which I would argue isn't relevant.
• spaceflunky 9y ago
  If these VCs are constantly using their power and privilege over women in their industry, I have to wonder if it actually ever works? And if it does work and the person on the receiving end doesn't view it as harassment, should we? Should we start publicly admonishing the people who chose to sleep with a VC for money? Part of me wonders if we should be equally aghast at the founder who does sleep with a VC for money/influence and has no qualms about it. It must be happening if VCs keep harassing at this rate, otherwise these VCs wouldn't keep trying. Im not trying to victim blame here, I'm just trying to point out that there may be a very strange culture underlying all of this sexual harassment.
• freeflight 9y ago
  > This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. > I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one time in twenty it will work. > Those are the people we call bullies, whether their acts are criminal or not. Spot on, sadly a much overlooked and ignored fact. While "sexism" certainly feeds into that, it's not the actual problem, the problem being that "assholes" often end up being very successful people because they can easily force their will upon others, regardless of gender. This is the very same dynamic which leads to "assholes" being way overrepresented in CEO positions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-small-business/wp/2016/09/16/gene-marks-21-percent-of-ceos-are-psychopaths-only-21-percent/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-small-business/wp/201... These are ruthless personalities and their success is often build upon exactly that ruthlessness. Why should the silicon valley vc ecosystem be exempt from that dynamic? It seems it ain't: https://www.saastr.com/are-silicon-valley-venture-capitalists-favouring-psychopaths-2/ https://www.saastr.com/are-silicon-valley-venture-capitalist... As a male, on the short end of that naturally existing power dynamic, you are flat out of luck because you can't point at your gender and generate drama to monetize on or take whole companies down, instead you are lumped up into a big sack as part of the supposedly "systematic problem" by labeling it a "male dominated culture", taking every male person into a quasi sippenhaft trough guild by gender association in the "fight against sexism". As somebody who considers himself a somewhat decent person, this whole tone in the discourse is getting rather tiresome because this also creates quite an oppressive environment for people who merely want to find a relationship partner. I feel guilty just thinking about approaching women on the street, I've rebuffed advances by female coworkers because that's not considered "appropriate", I don't want to approach that nice cashier in the supermarket because I fear I might bother her/creep her out. And because I've always been rather awkward with social situations, the outcome is quite predictable: I've been single for these last 10 years, while constantly being told how much of an asshole I'm for having been born with a dick.
  • XorNot 9y ago
    Simple question: do you commit sexual harassment? If no, this is not about you. The existence of this conversation is not aimed at you.
• imartin2k 9y ago
  If we replace the word "asshole" with "criminals", few except a couple of hardline conservatives would assume that one's destiny in life is being a criminal from the day you are born. Instead, as far as I understand most research, lots of external factors play a major role here. That probably is exactly the same here. These men have been socially conditioned to be assholes. Which, in my eyes, means that there actually should be room for some empathy. Which doesn't mean excusing their behavior, but it means understanding that despite their power and money, they are like every other human being the product of their environment and culture. And this culture is a joint product of every single member of it. Mark Manson wrote an insightful essay about this, titled "What's the problem with men". Tl;dr: "We unfairly objectify women in society for their beauty and sex appeal. Similarly, we unfairly objectify men for their professional success and aggression." https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-men https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-men
• FT_intern 9y ago
  > This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. The sentiment among many men working in the tech industry is that you can get crucified for making even a small compliment to a female. This idea of invulnerability would only be common among top executives and others who wield high amounts of power.
• odiroot 9y ago
  This reminds me strongly the usual stories from Hollywood, the big music industry and even medical world. We in IT are definitely not alone dealing with this bullcrap. I wonder why there's no more "unmasking" in these other sectors. Maybe the victims don't want to risk being unofficially blacklisted?
  • pm90 9y ago
    I think the article goes to certain lengths to explain that but yes that is certainly one part of it. I think another one, speaking as a minority, is simply one of not standing out too much. When most of your coworkers are a certain race and gender, one feels a greater impetus not to stand out too much simply because of that (i.e. gender, race etc.) but because of one's efforts, work ethic etc.
  • eli 9y ago
    It's pretty bad in IT. Maybe worse than most other major industries today.
    • solidsnack9000 9y ago
      > Maybe worse than most other major industries today. Many people say this but I wonder why they believe it.
      • eli 9y ago
        Did you read the linked article? People believe there's a gender problem in tech because there is a gender problem in tech. These stories are pervasive. I'd encourage you to ask a woman who's been in the industry and while of they've ever been treated unfairly. Women are almost exactly half of the workforce in the US, but hold only 25% of the jobs in computing. So that would imply the industry is worse than average. And the trend is going the wrong way: women were a much bigger presence in tech 20 years ago. IMHO, stories like the ones in this article are very common and are a major reason why. And that hurts everyone who works in tech. Moreover, the fact that other industries may also have a gender problem in no way excuses what's going on in the linked article.
• tootie 9y ago
  It's cringey if the perpetrator is a hapless nerd. It's harassment when they hold power over you.
  • zenkat 9y ago
    And it's creepy harassment when a nerd holds power over you.
  • zenkat 9y ago
    And it's creepy harassment when a nerd holds power over you.