7 ms·

This reads as react fanboyism to me. I used React/Redux on a project and was unable to bring people up in my aging team. Now we are fully Angular 2+. It is much

by jamra 9y ago

This reads as react fanboyism to me. I used React/Redux on a project and was unable to bring people up in my aging team. Now we are fully Angular 2+. It is much better for my newly grown team of 15. The action creator approach of Redux isn't very readable or maintainable. The module system in Angular is better for us. You can use webpack with Angular. RxJs is a great addition that will eventually be removed when Observables become implemented in JS. The declarative style of templates are different than JSX, but are not hard to deal with in practice. Native script allows for mobile dev, although I don't personally use it. Before I switched to Angular, I preferred React. Now that I use this framework approach, I am much happier and have more faith that my code base will be consistent. I read somewhere that google used Angular for adsense so I think it is good enough for production use for us.

andrewjrhill 9y ago
Couldn't have said it better myself.
simon83 9y ago
I guess when you say "aging" team then I imagine your team members mostly spent their time in the OOP world, and Angular is definitely a better fit in this case. React and Redux promotes a more functional style (even though React components are classes...), and a lot of OOP people I personally met were not so comfortable with it. Personally I love the functional concepts that it taught me, and I would never want to use a framework like Angular again. I'd rather make the leap and look into a real functional language for the frontend, like Elm, ClojureScript, PureScript,...
- jamra 9y ago
  I actually really liked Redux, but given the size of my team, I would choose Angular every time now. It's just more complete.
  - unoti 9y ago
    You might like NGRX, then. It's basically Redux for Angular 2. http://onehungrymind.com/build-better-angular-2-application-redux-ngrx/ http://onehungrymind.com/build-better-angular-2-application-...
    - vhvhbbv 9y ago
      Will this ever end? How deep must the stack go? God, I give it 10 seconds for someone to pop out the woodwork and say "Why don't just use NGRX 'cute name'? Here's a link to GitHub"
    - hbggvv 9y ago
      Will this ever end? How deep must the stack go? God, I give it 10 seconds for someone to pop out of the woodwork and say "Why don't you just use NGRX v3 'cute name'? Here's a link to my 10 star GitHub"
- jbreckmckye 9y ago
  Honest question: why are React developers so fixated on functional programming? Why are objects - bundles of state and action that represent entities in the problem domain - automatically painted as an antipattern?
  - pavlov 9y ago
    Because they're not old enough to remember what '80s GUI code looked like when the "Global god object + functions" pattern was last popular? That's a snarky reply, but there is a kernel of truth. OO was practically invented for GUIs (Smalltalk). Throwing it out entirely on principle just makes large programs harder to understand, IMHO.
    - simon83 9y ago
      True, I'm not old enough with my 33 years to remember that ;) But I do have quite a few years of experience in OOP and GUI programming (not just web stuff).
    - pikzen 9y ago
      >Because they're not old enough to remember what '80s GUI code looked like when the "Global god object + functions" pattern was last popular? Funnily enough, React + Redux is "Global god state + functions", with a bit of dispatch sprinkled in. Not too far away really. I definitely see the benefits of having a functional approach to defining UIs. My code is _somewhat_ clear, clearer than what it would have been with say, WinForms or something of the like. Going purely functional everywhere is just devs cargo culting.
  - simon83 9y ago
    I had no real clue about functional programming prior to React. I always did OOP before. Once I got in touch with React, I got interested in FP. Then I read the "Mostly Adequate Guide to Functional Programming" [1] and it was kind of an revelation for me. I still do OOP, and I'm far, far away from being an FP expert, but I think if I'd take the effort to learn a real FP language then I probably wouldn't want to go back to OOP, and that's something I fear :) I've read a few blog posts from people who stated that learning FP kind of made them "unemployable", because they suddenly saw all the problems and annoyances that OOP brings with it (unfortunately I can't find the link anymore). This quote regarding OOP by Joe Armstrong, the creator of Erlang, is quite fitting: "You wanted a banana, but what you got was a gorilla holding the banana, and the entire jungle." [1]: https://drboolean.gitbooks.io/mostly-adequate-guide/ https://drboolean.gitbooks.io/mostly-adequate-guide/
- eric_bullington 9y ago
  > even though React components are classes... Since 0.14, React components can be functions, too: https://hackernoon.com/react-stateless-functional-components-nine-wins-you-might-have-overlooked-997b0d933dbc https://hackernoon.com/react-stateless-functional-components...
Sujan 9y ago
> You can use webpack with Angular. Ionic, the mobile framework based on Angular mentioned in the article, actually does by default in it's `@ionic/app-scripts` that are used to build these applications.
cc81 9y ago
React + MobX is my goto when it comes to teams like that. Much easier to get up to speed with than Redux and often a more familiar programming model for people.
- jamra 9y ago
  I'll take a look at that. Never knew about MobX. In general, loyalty to one framework only boxes off our minds to what could be a better way of accomplishing our goals. It's a great world out there that we have so many options.
  - hesarenu 9y ago
    plus one for Mobx. It really is very simple compared to redux. I do have many apps using redux, but for newer ones i now prefer mobx.
- tuan 9y ago
  I've used Redux, but have never used MobX. How's MobX compared to Redux in terms of debugging experience ? I've looked at a couple MobX examples, and felt like the obserable stuff, while help reduce boilerplate code, could hide too many things which could make debugging a bit difficult.
  - tarr11 9y ago
    I've had some problems with mobx. Works great on smaller projects, but can be hard to debug when something goes wrong. Observable objects are tough to read in the debugger. The main gotcha I found [1] was dereferencing property of an observable didn't trigger rendering. Didn't feel very intuitive to me. Also, occasionally, I would insert a row into an observable array and nothing would happen, and I could never figure out why. Using redux now, it's more explicit and full of boilerplate and ceremony, but I understand all the code, and there is far less magic. [1] https://mobx.js.org/refguide/observer-component.html https://mobx.js.org/refguide/observer-component.html
    - 9y ago
jinder 9y ago
> You can use webpack with Angular. In fact, Angular CLI uses Webpack by default.
heisenbit 9y ago
> You can use webpack with Angular. That is a bit of an understatement. Using the angular CLI the default is setting up a project with webpack with a single command. Webpack is wrapped in the "ng ..." commands for building and running. With "ng eject" the webpack config file is exposed and webpack is in the driver seat. It is not just "can" but it is really easy these days. There may be reasons not to like Angular but articles focusing on AngularJS 1.x are not shining the light on relevant weaknesses. Angular may be too late if one buys into the view that the growth in the JavaScript ecosystem has peaked or is peaking soon. My personal view is that the growth has been stunted by severe UX problems before ES6/Typescript and we are just at the beginning of an explosive growth phase with no end in sight.
jhuckabee 9y ago
> The action creator approach of Redux isn't very readable or maintainable. Can you elaborate on this? I've been working on an Angular 2+ application that I think could benefit from a redux like state container a la ngrx/store. I'm curious if some of the issues you outline might also be applicable here.
unclebucknasty 9y ago
>This reads as react fanboyism to me Why isn't your comment Angular fanboyism? Full disclosure: I prefer neither.
- kthejoker2 9y ago
  It reads like React fanboyism to me too. Very one sided, and seems light on actual knowledge of Angular. Full disclosure: I am not a web dev at all so my opinion is more valid.
tkubacki 9y ago
AdWords, AdSense and internal Google CRM are written in Dart - namely AngularDart: https://webdev.dartlang.org/angular https://webdev.dartlang.org/angular according to: http://news.dartlang.org/2017/06/a-stronger-dart-for-everyone.html http://news.dartlang.org/2017/06/a-stronger-dart-for-everyon...

by jamra 9y ago

andrewjrhill 9y ago

Couldn't have said it better myself.

simon83 9y ago

I guess when you say "aging" team then I imagine your team members mostly spent their time in the OOP world, and Angular is definitely a better fit in this case. React and Redux promotes a more functional style (even though React components are classes...), and a lot of OOP people I personally met were not so comfortable with it. Personally I love the functional concepts that it taught me, and I would never want to use a framework like Angular again. I'd rather make the leap and look into a real functional language for the frontend, like Elm, ClojureScript, PureScript,...

jamra 9y ago
I actually really liked Redux, but given the size of my team, I would choose Angular every time now. It's just more complete.
- unoti 9y ago
  You might like NGRX, then. It's basically Redux for Angular 2. http://onehungrymind.com/build-better-angular-2-application-redux-ngrx/ http://onehungrymind.com/build-better-angular-2-application-...
  - vhvhbbv 9y ago
    Will this ever end? How deep must the stack go? God, I give it 10 seconds for someone to pop out the woodwork and say "Why don't just use NGRX 'cute name'? Here's a link to GitHub"
  - hbggvv 9y ago
    Will this ever end? How deep must the stack go? God, I give it 10 seconds for someone to pop out of the woodwork and say "Why don't you just use NGRX v3 'cute name'? Here's a link to my 10 star GitHub"
jbreckmckye 9y ago
Honest question: why are React developers so fixated on functional programming? Why are objects - bundles of state and action that represent entities in the problem domain - automatically painted as an antipattern?
- pavlov 9y ago
  Because they're not old enough to remember what '80s GUI code looked like when the "Global god object + functions" pattern was last popular? That's a snarky reply, but there is a kernel of truth. OO was practically invented for GUIs (Smalltalk). Throwing it out entirely on principle just makes large programs harder to understand, IMHO.
  - simon83 9y ago
    True, I'm not old enough with my 33 years to remember that ;) But I do have quite a few years of experience in OOP and GUI programming (not just web stuff).
  - pikzen 9y ago
    >Because they're not old enough to remember what '80s GUI code looked like when the "Global god object + functions" pattern was last popular? Funnily enough, React + Redux is "Global god state + functions", with a bit of dispatch sprinkled in. Not too far away really. I definitely see the benefits of having a functional approach to defining UIs. My code is _somewhat_ clear, clearer than what it would have been with say, WinForms or something of the like. Going purely functional everywhere is just devs cargo culting.
- simon83 9y ago
  I had no real clue about functional programming prior to React. I always did OOP before. Once I got in touch with React, I got interested in FP. Then I read the "Mostly Adequate Guide to Functional Programming" [1] and it was kind of an revelation for me. I still do OOP, and I'm far, far away from being an FP expert, but I think if I'd take the effort to learn a real FP language then I probably wouldn't want to go back to OOP, and that's something I fear :) I've read a few blog posts from people who stated that learning FP kind of made them "unemployable", because they suddenly saw all the problems and annoyances that OOP brings with it (unfortunately I can't find the link anymore). This quote regarding OOP by Joe Armstrong, the creator of Erlang, is quite fitting: "You wanted a banana, but what you got was a gorilla holding the banana, and the entire jungle." [1]: https://drboolean.gitbooks.io/mostly-adequate-guide/ https://drboolean.gitbooks.io/mostly-adequate-guide/
eric_bullington 9y ago
> even though React components are classes... Since 0.14, React components can be functions, too: https://hackernoon.com/react-stateless-functional-components-nine-wins-you-might-have-overlooked-997b0d933dbc https://hackernoon.com/react-stateless-functional-components...

Sujan 9y ago

> You can use webpack with Angular. Ionic, the mobile framework based on Angular mentioned in the article, actually does by default in it's `@ionic/app-scripts` that are used to build these applications.

cc81 9y ago

React + MobX is my goto when it comes to teams like that. Much easier to get up to speed with than Redux and often a more familiar programming model for people.

jamra 9y ago
I'll take a look at that. Never knew about MobX. In general, loyalty to one framework only boxes off our minds to what could be a better way of accomplishing our goals. It's a great world out there that we have so many options.
- hesarenu 9y ago
  plus one for Mobx. It really is very simple compared to redux. I do have many apps using redux, but for newer ones i now prefer mobx.
tuan 9y ago
I've used Redux, but have never used MobX. How's MobX compared to Redux in terms of debugging experience ? I've looked at a couple MobX examples, and felt like the obserable stuff, while help reduce boilerplate code, could hide too many things which could make debugging a bit difficult.
- tarr11 9y ago
  I've had some problems with mobx. Works great on smaller projects, but can be hard to debug when something goes wrong. Observable objects are tough to read in the debugger. The main gotcha I found [1] was dereferencing property of an observable didn't trigger rendering. Didn't feel very intuitive to me. Also, occasionally, I would insert a row into an observable array and nothing would happen, and I could never figure out why. Using redux now, it's more explicit and full of boilerplate and ceremony, but I understand all the code, and there is far less magic. [1] https://mobx.js.org/refguide/observer-component.html https://mobx.js.org/refguide/observer-component.html
  - 9y ago

jinder 9y ago

> You can use webpack with Angular. In fact, Angular CLI uses Webpack by default.

heisenbit 9y ago

> You can use webpack with Angular. That is a bit of an understatement. Using the angular CLI the default is setting up a project with webpack with a single command. Webpack is wrapped in the "ng ..." commands for building and running. With "ng eject" the webpack config file is exposed and webpack is in the driver seat. It is not just "can" but it is really easy these days. There may be reasons not to like Angular but articles focusing on AngularJS 1.x are not shining the light on relevant weaknesses. Angular may be too late if one buys into the view that the growth in the JavaScript ecosystem has peaked or is peaking soon. My personal view is that the growth has been stunted by severe UX problems before ES6/Typescript and we are just at the beginning of an explosive growth phase with no end in sight.

jhuckabee 9y ago

> The action creator approach of Redux isn't very readable or maintainable. Can you elaborate on this? I've been working on an Angular 2+ application that I think could benefit from a redux like state container a la ngrx/store. I'm curious if some of the issues you outline might also be applicable here.

unclebucknasty 9y ago

>This reads as react fanboyism to me Why isn't your comment Angular fanboyism? Full disclosure: I prefer neither.

kthejoker2 9y ago
It reads like React fanboyism to me too. Very one sided, and seems light on actual knowledge of Angular. Full disclosure: I am not a web dev at all so my opinion is more valid.

tkubacki 9y ago

AdWords, AdSense and internal Google CRM are written in Dart - namely AngularDart: https://webdev.dartlang.org/angular https://webdev.dartlang.org/angular according to: http://news.dartlang.org/2017/06/a-stronger-dart-for-everyone.html http://news.dartlang.org/2017/06/a-stronger-dart-for-everyon...