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I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of th

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotistic, vindictive, and now deadlocked. It reminds me of the old D&D alignment battle: Lawful evil vs. neutral evil. No one cared that the government was kind of evil back while it was obsessively following the rule of law, even if the law was kind of crooked, but under the Chinese it shifted away from that and became whatever is most immediately expedient to those in power. The vaunted "rule of law" became a mere mask for Beijing party politics games.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Wouldn't China's rule be more chaotic evil?
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  China would be less traditional D&D alignments and more of a faction-based system where the party and the nation are at the top of the loyalty priority list.
- posterboy 9y ago
  that's a contradiction in terms, because rules don't exist in chaos, so neither does rule.
RangerScience 9y ago
Not to doubt you - but, what's your source? (You sound correct, but I don't know how to verify what you're saying).
- Fej 9y ago
  Take a look at history - India, for example, which took one of the most famous revolutionies of all time to escape Britain's rule, which they agitated for because of awful policies like the salt tax.
- Taniwha 9y ago
  Have a look at Wikipedia - especially 1991 (and before) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_constituency_(Hong_Kong) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_constituency_(Hong_... where else do you get the equivalent of two senate seat for the chamber of commerce, another for manufacturer's sassociation, a third for the construction industry, a fourth for the banks ..... but none elected at large by the populace even today only half the council is elected at large
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > where else do you get the equivalent of two senate seat for the chamber of commerce, another for manufacturer's sassociation, a third for the construction industry, a fourth for the banks The City of London gives companies votes [1]. And until 1948, college graduates in the United Kingdom voted twice [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation#Voters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation#V... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_Act_1948 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People...
Umofomia 9y ago
> I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do Note that it's not because the British never tried to introduce democracy. In fact they were heavily dissuaded from doing so because of ... surprise ... China. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-uk-thatcher/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-... Declassified documents from long before handover negotiations even began show that some British officials did seek to introduce more democracy in Hong Kong but were angrily rebuffed by Beijing. Allowing Hong Kong people to govern themselves would be a "very unfriendly act," premier Zhou Enlai reportedly told British officials in 1958. Another Chinese official in 1960 threatened potential invasion if the UK attempted to introduce greater democracy to the colony. More details here too: https://qz.com/279013/the-secret-history-of-hong-kongs-stillborn-democracy/ https://qz.com/279013/the-secret-history-of-hong-kongs-still...
- FabHK 9y ago
  Yep, and while there was never universal suffrage, most other civil liberties and the rule of law were upheld, by and large, under British administration. And that is giving way, slice by slice, to Chinese "guanxi" (i.e., "connections", "who do you know") and authoritarian politics. :-/
  - dis-sys 9y ago
    This is funny given the fact that in HK what school you go to largely depends on how much money your parents have (buy bonds issued by schools) and what is their occupation. This is strictly prohibited in mainland China - a private school recently asked education level of parents on one of its admin forms, that became national news and that school got punished in days. Selling school bonds to effectively bar average families to access equal educational rights would be criminal offence. If you like, we can continue one public healthcare - whether the residence of Shanghai has better access to public hospital or those in HK? Requiring people to wait months or even years to have surgery in public hospital would probably causing an uprising in China, but apparently that is okay in HK as the rich how makes the law can always go to private hospital. Your definition of "rule of law" is quite different, that is all.

toomuchtodo 9y ago

Wouldn't China's rule be more chaotic evil?

logfromblammo 9y ago
China would be less traditional D&D alignments and more of a faction-based system where the party and the nation are at the top of the loyalty priority list.
posterboy 9y ago
that's a contradiction in terms, because rules don't exist in chaos, so neither does rule.

RangerScience 9y ago

Not to doubt you - but, what's your source? (You sound correct, but I don't know how to verify what you're saying).

Fej 9y ago
Take a look at history - India, for example, which took one of the most famous revolutionies of all time to escape Britain's rule, which they agitated for because of awful policies like the salt tax.
Taniwha 9y ago
Have a look at Wikipedia - especially 1991 (and before) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_constituency_(Hong_Kong) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_constituency_(Hong_... where else do you get the equivalent of two senate seat for the chamber of commerce, another for manufacturer's sassociation, a third for the construction industry, a fourth for the banks ..... but none elected at large by the populace even today only half the council is elected at large
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > where else do you get the equivalent of two senate seat for the chamber of commerce, another for manufacturer's sassociation, a third for the construction industry, a fourth for the banks The City of London gives companies votes [1]. And until 1948, college graduates in the United Kingdom voted twice [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation#Voters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation#V... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_Act_1948 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People...

Umofomia 9y ago

> I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do Note that it's not because the British never tried to introduce democracy. In fact they were heavily dissuaded from doing so because of ... surprise ... China. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-uk-thatcher/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-... Declassified documents from long before handover negotiations even began show that some British officials did seek to introduce more democracy in Hong Kong but were angrily rebuffed by Beijing. Allowing Hong Kong people to govern themselves would be a "very unfriendly act," premier Zhou Enlai reportedly told British officials in 1958. Another Chinese official in 1960 threatened potential invasion if the UK attempted to introduce greater democracy to the colony. More details here too: https://qz.com/279013/the-secret-history-of-hong-kongs-stillborn-democracy/ https://qz.com/279013/the-secret-history-of-hong-kongs-still...

FabHK 9y ago
Yep, and while there was never universal suffrage, most other civil liberties and the rule of law were upheld, by and large, under British administration. And that is giving way, slice by slice, to Chinese "guanxi" (i.e., "connections", "who do you know") and authoritarian politics. :-/
- dis-sys 9y ago
  This is funny given the fact that in HK what school you go to largely depends on how much money your parents have (buy bonds issued by schools) and what is their occupation. This is strictly prohibited in mainland China - a private school recently asked education level of parents on one of its admin forms, that became national news and that school got punished in days. Selling school bonds to effectively bar average families to access equal educational rights would be criminal offence. If you like, we can continue one public healthcare - whether the residence of Shanghai has better access to public hospital or those in HK? Requiring people to wait months or even years to have surgery in public hospital would probably causing an uprising in China, but apparently that is okay in HK as the rich how makes the law can always go to private hospital. Your definition of "rule of law" is quite different, that is all.