7 ms·

Judges refuse to order fix for court software that put people in jail by mistake

341 points by kyleblarson 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wonderwonder 9y ago
Obviously a case of not enough wealthy people being affected. If the poor are falsely imprisoned its just business as usual and they lack the clout to hire an aggressive talented attorney. This will likely rectify itself as soon as a substantially wealthy individual is imprisoned improperly. Just a continuation of the sad state of our legal system where punishment is not so much an issue of guilt but of wealth or more specifically the lack thereof. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-new-orleans-public-defenders-decision-to-refuse-felony-cases/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-new-orleans-public-defend...
- Shivetya 9y ago
  In Alameda County I think this is more a problem of a court system which puts itself above the people. there are numerous stories out there about problems in that county. this includes spending nearly a hundred fifty million on a new court house and support buildings and then chopping the staff to handle cases from nearly a thousand to under seven hundred. So you have all this out lay for shiny new buildings and then the people in the same part of funding get cut. throw in the courts, even appellate courts, do not like ruling against a judge and its harder to see it happen over a question that does not pertain to an individual case. all of this budget cutting of staff to work the courts is fascinating but expected in a state that is nearly run by its police public service union. they are big money and getting people in the system is priority there. hence attempts to fix or slow that can be stymied with little public outrage
  - trhway 9y ago
    >state that is nearly run by its police public service union. don't forget the prison guard union. That one is probably most powerful in the state, and naturally plays the same side with the police union.
- davesque 9y ago
  Also, am I correct in understanding that private prisons earn more profit if they have more inmates? So someone stands to make less money if less people go to prison. Any connection there or am I blowing things out of proportion?
  - trhway 9y ago
    frequently the private prison contract contains minimum occupancy guarantees (like 80-100%). Thus government has to either send people to prison no matter what or to face the politically tricky situation when taxpayers' money would be openly wasted on non-occupied "beds".
    - Florin_Andrei 9y ago
      What could possibly go wrong, with rules like this? /s
  - askvictor 9y ago
    I believe that that is the status quo, or something similar. But I read recently about a different model where prisons get bonuses for reducing recidivism; I can't remember where it is being set up, and don't exactly have faith in private run things like this, but it's a step in the right direction.
  - gumby 9y ago
    > Any connection there or am I blowing things out of proportion? This police and prison guards' unions are why California had the "three strikes" law in the first place. So yes, there is a direct connection.
  - bmpafa 9y ago
    You're right. And if anything, you're understating the conflict of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
- lclarkmichalek 9y ago
  Seems it was more a case of the plaintiff not having standing.
  - hluska 9y ago
    I think the op's point was that plaintiffs with standing can't afford to seek a legal remedy.
  - sitkack 9y ago
    "plaintiff not having standing" is one of the biggest bullshit aspects of American law. Unjust laws sit on the books being used to threaten and intimidate people, and only until some with the money, gall and the lack of anything to lose does a law get challenged. This person also needs to get charged under this law, which often not the case. The Justice System, knowing the rules, tries to never expose itself to a potential challenger. 1) Laws should pass a constitutional court before being put into place. 2) Anyone should be able to challenge a law. Period. Of course, those "with standing" should have more weight. But many clearly unconstitutional laws stand simply because of a lack of standing.
  - rebuilder 9y ago
    So is this being treated as a civil matter? To me this seems more like the kind of thing the prosecutor's office should pursue.
- SamUK96 9y ago
  Punishment/containment systems like jails, fines, etc., have always worked this way, and history tells you it will never stop. If anything it has gotten better since, way, 1700's, where the rich simply were the law.
plandis 9y ago
Here is the docket: http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=1&doc_id=2190036&doc_no=A151018 http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.c...
rrggrr 9y ago
>Even if there was standing, the plaintiffs did not establish that they would “suffer harm or prejudice in a manner that cannot be corrected on appeal.” “They also fail to show that they lack an adequate remedy at law, as they may move for correction of erroneous records at any time,” the 1st District continued. Civil and criminal Courts are intentionally blind to the cost, suffering and disruption the process inflicts. It should be obvious that filing an appeal and moving to correct records is expensive at a minimum, and hugely disruptive to people struggling to survive, support families, etc. It may be easier and cheaper to simply do time for alleged offenses, innocent or not. Its appalling. @wonderwonder's comment is on target.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  That's not what it is about. The judge basically said that the public defender couldn't bring suit because he was never harmed by said system. For this to go forward, he would need to find someone who was jailed or labeled a sex offender incorrectly, and have them bring suit. That is the heart of the statement.
  - baybal2 9y ago
    The heart of the statement is that he is denied standing on public interest grounds because they dug up a case law that effectively nullified public interest ground exception which comes from u.s. code. Now if he is to proceed further, he needs to find ground to bust that case law and an insane legal doctrines it is based on
    - yebyen 9y ago
      The really messed up part is that you can't just point out a problem and get it fixed, you have to actually sue the state to get them to fix it. This problem is sending people to jail wrongfully, and we know it, but we won't fix it unless you find someone with standing to sue, then sue and win. (Until such time, of course, everyone affected can get f'ed.)
      - 9y ago
andrewla 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13069775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13069775 was posted as the nature of the problem began to occur, and has many interesting discussion on the underlying problems involved.
baybal2 9y ago
In any normal jurisdiction, a prima facie mistrial would've resulted in an automatic disqualification and disbarment of a presiding judge. America admits no legal liability of court employees over anything except gross miscariage of justice, and even for such cases Americans invented insane legal theories that let few judges walk away from charges ranging from corruption and bribery to selling "freedom for blowjob" Push for personal liability of judges in mistrials and violations of court protocols
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- paulddraper 9y ago
  > normal jurisdiction What is this "normal jurisdiction" you speak of? The jurisdiction most people are in? China, India, U.S.? Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan? Nigeria, Bangladesh, Russia? Mexico, Japan, Ethiopia? Philippines, Egypt, Vietnam? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio...
  - manquer 9y ago
    Disingenuous.. do you always compare the united states with developing economies for everything ? They are all less than 100 years old as independent countries . with europe or other mature democracies would be better context for normal surely? Even these countries do not have 25 % world 's incarcerated population.. US legal system has a problem whether you admit it or not
    - paulddraper 9y ago
      Seeking for "normal", I just took the top 15 most populous countries, representing two-thirds of the entire human race. Maybe by "normal" you meant "ideal". Or maybe you meant "where I live". But if "normal" means "usual", I think you are wrong.
hvo 9y ago
How about if the two names of sitting judges are added to the list,one appellate judge and one supreme court judge. I am confident the software will be fixed.
module0000 9y ago
These problems are effectively solved from a grassy knoll or book depository window. Not so effectively solved by "legal process" it seems. tldr; new judge!
Overtonwindow 9y ago
"the public defender’s office has filed approximately 2,000 motions informing the court that, due to its reportedly imperfect software, many of its clients have been forced to serve unnecessary jail time, be improperly arrested, or even wrongly registered as sex offenders." There's the metric. Maybe there's a law firm that's willing to sue on behalf of all of these people. Surely the hassle of that lawsuit would push them to change, and those defendants would have standing.
slang800 9y ago
Actual arguments used by the judge: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3514379-Order-Denying-Odyssey-Motion.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3514379-Order-Denyin... From a brief reading, it seems like the complaint is delays/errors in document entry by clerks (like updates to probation terms or bail postings) and that the search interface isn't connected with other databases. Just sounds like confusing software, or users that haven't been trained to use it. However, it's not clear if it's causing more or less clerical errors than the last system they had.
downandout 9y ago
The law does allow for all of these people serving extra days in confinement to seek financial damages for each day. It seems to me like a civil attorney could file boiler plate lawsuits for each of these people, since the underlying facts in each case are nearly identical. Besides the money that both the attorney and his clients would enjoy, that would be by far the fastest route to getting this fixed. It will stay broken until it hits the county in the wallet.
WCityMike 9y ago
As a legal assistant in Illinois, which will start using this software statewide by the end of the year (excluding Cook and some other counties, which adopted other software), this is troubling news.
angry_napkin 9y ago
Unit tests, while not the prescription for everything, do tend to be important in some domains.

341 points by kyleblarson 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

wonderwonder 9y ago

Obviously a case of not enough wealthy people being affected. If the poor are falsely imprisoned its just business as usual and they lack the clout to hire an aggressive talented attorney. This will likely rectify itself as soon as a substantially wealthy individual is imprisoned improperly. Just a continuation of the sad state of our legal system where punishment is not so much an issue of guilt but of wealth or more specifically the lack thereof. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-new-orleans-public-defenders-decision-to-refuse-felony-cases/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-new-orleans-public-defend...

Shivetya 9y ago
In Alameda County I think this is more a problem of a court system which puts itself above the people. there are numerous stories out there about problems in that county. this includes spending nearly a hundred fifty million on a new court house and support buildings and then chopping the staff to handle cases from nearly a thousand to under seven hundred. So you have all this out lay for shiny new buildings and then the people in the same part of funding get cut. throw in the courts, even appellate courts, do not like ruling against a judge and its harder to see it happen over a question that does not pertain to an individual case. all of this budget cutting of staff to work the courts is fascinating but expected in a state that is nearly run by its police public service union. they are big money and getting people in the system is priority there. hence attempts to fix or slow that can be stymied with little public outrage
- trhway 9y ago
  >state that is nearly run by its police public service union. don't forget the prison guard union. That one is probably most powerful in the state, and naturally plays the same side with the police union.
davesque 9y ago
Also, am I correct in understanding that private prisons earn more profit if they have more inmates? So someone stands to make less money if less people go to prison. Any connection there or am I blowing things out of proportion?
- trhway 9y ago
  frequently the private prison contract contains minimum occupancy guarantees (like 80-100%). Thus government has to either send people to prison no matter what or to face the politically tricky situation when taxpayers' money would be openly wasted on non-occupied "beds".
  - Florin_Andrei 9y ago
    What could possibly go wrong, with rules like this? /s
- askvictor 9y ago
  I believe that that is the status quo, or something similar. But I read recently about a different model where prisons get bonuses for reducing recidivism; I can't remember where it is being set up, and don't exactly have faith in private run things like this, but it's a step in the right direction.
- gumby 9y ago
  > Any connection there or am I blowing things out of proportion? This police and prison guards' unions are why California had the "three strikes" law in the first place. So yes, there is a direct connection.
- bmpafa 9y ago
  You're right. And if anything, you're understating the conflict of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
lclarkmichalek 9y ago
Seems it was more a case of the plaintiff not having standing.
- hluska 9y ago
  I think the op's point was that plaintiffs with standing can't afford to seek a legal remedy.
- sitkack 9y ago
  "plaintiff not having standing" is one of the biggest bullshit aspects of American law. Unjust laws sit on the books being used to threaten and intimidate people, and only until some with the money, gall and the lack of anything to lose does a law get challenged. This person also needs to get charged under this law, which often not the case. The Justice System, knowing the rules, tries to never expose itself to a potential challenger. 1) Laws should pass a constitutional court before being put into place. 2) Anyone should be able to challenge a law. Period. Of course, those "with standing" should have more weight. But many clearly unconstitutional laws stand simply because of a lack of standing.
- rebuilder 9y ago
  So is this being treated as a civil matter? To me this seems more like the kind of thing the prosecutor's office should pursue.
SamUK96 9y ago
Punishment/containment systems like jails, fines, etc., have always worked this way, and history tells you it will never stop. If anything it has gotten better since, way, 1700's, where the rich simply were the law.

plandis 9y ago

Here is the docket: http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=1&doc_id=2190036&doc_no=A151018 http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.c...

rrggrr 9y ago

>Even if there was standing, the plaintiffs did not establish that they would “suffer harm or prejudice in a manner that cannot be corrected on appeal.” “They also fail to show that they lack an adequate remedy at law, as they may move for correction of erroneous records at any time,” the 1st District continued. Civil and criminal Courts are intentionally blind to the cost, suffering and disruption the process inflicts. It should be obvious that filing an appeal and moving to correct records is expensive at a minimum, and hugely disruptive to people struggling to survive, support families, etc. It may be easier and cheaper to simply do time for alleged offenses, innocent or not. Its appalling. @wonderwonder's comment is on target.

oh_sigh 9y ago
That's not what it is about. The judge basically said that the public defender couldn't bring suit because he was never harmed by said system. For this to go forward, he would need to find someone who was jailed or labeled a sex offender incorrectly, and have them bring suit. That is the heart of the statement.
- baybal2 9y ago
  The heart of the statement is that he is denied standing on public interest grounds because they dug up a case law that effectively nullified public interest ground exception which comes from u.s. code. Now if he is to proceed further, he needs to find ground to bust that case law and an insane legal doctrines it is based on
  - yebyen 9y ago
    The really messed up part is that you can't just point out a problem and get it fixed, you have to actually sue the state to get them to fix it. This problem is sending people to jail wrongfully, and we know it, but we won't fix it unless you find someone with standing to sue, then sue and win. (Until such time, of course, everyone affected can get f'ed.)
    - 9y ago

andrewla 9y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13069775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13069775 was posted as the nature of the problem began to occur, and has many interesting discussion on the underlying problems involved.

baybal2 9y ago

In any normal jurisdiction, a prima facie mistrial would've resulted in an automatic disqualification and disbarment of a presiding judge. America admits no legal liability of court employees over anything except gross miscariage of justice, and even for such cases Americans invented insane legal theories that let few judges walk away from charges ranging from corruption and bribery to selling "freedom for blowjob" Push for personal liability of judges in mistrials and violations of court protocols

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
paulddraper 9y ago
> normal jurisdiction What is this "normal jurisdiction" you speak of? The jurisdiction most people are in? China, India, U.S.? Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan? Nigeria, Bangladesh, Russia? Mexico, Japan, Ethiopia? Philippines, Egypt, Vietnam? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio...
- manquer 9y ago
  Disingenuous.. do you always compare the united states with developing economies for everything ? They are all less than 100 years old as independent countries . with europe or other mature democracies would be better context for normal surely? Even these countries do not have 25 % world 's incarcerated population.. US legal system has a problem whether you admit it or not
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    Seeking for "normal", I just took the top 15 most populous countries, representing two-thirds of the entire human race. Maybe by "normal" you meant "ideal". Or maybe you meant "where I live". But if "normal" means "usual", I think you are wrong.

hvo 9y ago

How about if the two names of sitting judges are added to the list,one appellate judge and one supreme court judge. I am confident the software will be fixed.

module0000 9y ago

These problems are effectively solved from a grassy knoll or book depository window. Not so effectively solved by "legal process" it seems. tldr; new judge!

Overtonwindow 9y ago

"the public defender’s office has filed approximately 2,000 motions informing the court that, due to its reportedly imperfect software, many of its clients have been forced to serve unnecessary jail time, be improperly arrested, or even wrongly registered as sex offenders." There's the metric. Maybe there's a law firm that's willing to sue on behalf of all of these people. Surely the hassle of that lawsuit would push them to change, and those defendants would have standing.

slang800 9y ago

Actual arguments used by the judge: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3514379-Order-Denying-Odyssey-Motion.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3514379-Order-Denyin... From a brief reading, it seems like the complaint is delays/errors in document entry by clerks (like updates to probation terms or bail postings) and that the search interface isn't connected with other databases. Just sounds like confusing software, or users that haven't been trained to use it. However, it's not clear if it's causing more or less clerical errors than the last system they had.

downandout 9y ago

The law does allow for all of these people serving extra days in confinement to seek financial damages for each day. It seems to me like a civil attorney could file boiler plate lawsuits for each of these people, since the underlying facts in each case are nearly identical. Besides the money that both the attorney and his clients would enjoy, that would be by far the fastest route to getting this fixed. It will stay broken until it hits the county in the wallet.

WCityMike 9y ago

As a legal assistant in Illinois, which will start using this software statewide by the end of the year (excluding Cook and some other counties, which adopted other software), this is troubling news.

angry_napkin 9y ago

Unit tests, while not the prescription for everything, do tend to be important in some domains.