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> Programming is definitionally limited to cryptic text. Anything that deviates from that, especially if it makes it non-cryptic or easy, is no longer a program

> Programming is definitionally limited to cryptic text. Anything that deviates from that, especially if it makes it non-cryptic or easy, is no longer a programming tool; it becomes a tool for lowly users Disagree. My first job trained non-programmers to be proficient in Ab Initio, whose first layer was visual directed graphs. It was a data processing tool, and yes you could click into the "cryptic text", but more often, due to the visual first layer that generalized basic data operations, the code beneath was quite understandable. It is still Turing complete and an efficient language, just a little more accessible and easier for non-developers to pick up.

Buttons840 9y ago
How sane were the non-programmers creations? I've sometimes wondered, if we did have an effective way to visualize code, how would people react when they see the horrors we sometimes create - or they make us create ;) ?
- unityByFreedom 9y ago
  Pretty sane! The first view you get is a visual representation of the architecture, which is a really nice way to get to know someone else's code. Plus, there isn't much code with this setup because it's easier to add another block to the graph than it is to add code to do the same task. Here's an example of a graph [1]. You can click into each block to see its parameters [2]. Once you click into the code, it's usually just one or a few line definitions of what each output item should be. It runs in CPU-parallel by default without any adjustments from the developer, so pretty efficient. Also it was made by the guys who started Thinking Machines in the 80s, which was the hot AI company at the time. At the time, Ab Initio was considered a Data Warehousing or ETL tool. The most conceptually similar modern tool I've seen is Luna [3], though I don't think that's considered "Data Warehousing" per-se. Anyway, I always felt it was a cool way to write software, having a visual layer on top to describe data flow. [1] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V4l062fNI/AAAAAAAABOQ/pyA_W1NNq70/s1600/Abinitio+Partition+By+Key+1.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V4l062fNI/AAAAAAAABO... [2] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V1P_C64TI/AAAAAAAABNQ/Js5BPCectkc/s1600/Abinitio+Join.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V1P_C64TI/AAAAAAAABN... [3] http://www.luna-lang.org/ http://www.luna-lang.org/
- ilaksh 9y ago
  Examine this thread and you will see my point perhaps. The degree that it became more accessible (due to not using cryptic text) made it more a tool for non-programmers. I am not trying to say this is my ideal definition of programming -- I think its a pretty stupid limitation. But after having discussed and researched this stuff for years and in the context of at least 8 or 10 tools, there is some psychological issue holding us back rather than a practical one. Which is not to say there are no practical issues -- its just that numerous tools have shown that they aren't insurmountable.
  - unityByFreedom 9y ago
    > But after having discussed and researched this stuff for years and in the context of at least 8 or 10 tools, there is some psychological issue holding us back rather than a practical one. I think the benefits of graph-based programming are pretty clear. Having used such a tool already, I see the benefits of being able to visualize code at the top level. In fact, everyone does, we just don't have the time or willpower to recreate the visual layer for all our code. When that visual layer is built into the language, it saves everyone time, both in building and understanding. I don't think plain code is going away anytime soon, and it will always be an option, but I'd like to see more done in the visual top layer space, like Luna. It has a level of conciseness like fuctional programming that I enjoy. Almost like bringing back (Turing's?) finite state machines at a higher level. I suspect the problem to which you allude, the lack of pervasiveness of visual-based programming, has more to do with how many folks have implemented it successfully. You may not be aware, but Ab Initio runs in a lot of big enterprise software stacks. People trained in that software are proficient in building solutions quickly with little or no CS background. Jobs in that tool remain high salaried to this day. The company is quite secretive and only licenses/trains with certain consultancies.
    - ilaksh 9y ago
      But are those people programmers? I mean if you show a 'real' programmer those people doing their job, will they really think they are doing programming or software engineers? Are you sure that things like graphical ETL such as SSIS, graphical or automated reporting, and more generally database-oriented RAD tools are not actually fairly common?
Someone 9y ago
For the curious: that software is alive: https://www.abinitio.com/en https://www.abinitio.com/en. Aside: that's a surprisingly pleasant page for a tool aimed at the enterprise (you have to contact sales to get a price quote)

Buttons840 9y ago

How sane were the non-programmers creations? I've sometimes wondered, if we did have an effective way to visualize code, how would people react when they see the horrors we sometimes create - or they make us create ;) ?

unityByFreedom 9y ago
Pretty sane! The first view you get is a visual representation of the architecture, which is a really nice way to get to know someone else's code. Plus, there isn't much code with this setup because it's easier to add another block to the graph than it is to add code to do the same task. Here's an example of a graph [1]. You can click into each block to see its parameters [2]. Once you click into the code, it's usually just one or a few line definitions of what each output item should be. It runs in CPU-parallel by default without any adjustments from the developer, so pretty efficient. Also it was made by the guys who started Thinking Machines in the 80s, which was the hot AI company at the time. At the time, Ab Initio was considered a Data Warehousing or ETL tool. The most conceptually similar modern tool I've seen is Luna [3], though I don't think that's considered "Data Warehousing" per-se. Anyway, I always felt it was a cool way to write software, having a visual layer on top to describe data flow. [1] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V4l062fNI/AAAAAAAABOQ/pyA_W1NNq70/s1600/Abinitio+Partition+By+Key+1.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V4l062fNI/AAAAAAAABO... [2] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V1P_C64TI/AAAAAAAABNQ/Js5BPCectkc/s1600/Abinitio+Join.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FwFkbVFfnGQ/S_V1P_C64TI/AAAAAAAABN... [3] http://www.luna-lang.org/ http://www.luna-lang.org/
ilaksh 9y ago
Examine this thread and you will see my point perhaps. The degree that it became more accessible (due to not using cryptic text) made it more a tool for non-programmers. I am not trying to say this is my ideal definition of programming -- I think its a pretty stupid limitation. But after having discussed and researched this stuff for years and in the context of at least 8 or 10 tools, there is some psychological issue holding us back rather than a practical one. Which is not to say there are no practical issues -- its just that numerous tools have shown that they aren't insurmountable.
- unityByFreedom 9y ago
  > But after having discussed and researched this stuff for years and in the context of at least 8 or 10 tools, there is some psychological issue holding us back rather than a practical one. I think the benefits of graph-based programming are pretty clear. Having used such a tool already, I see the benefits of being able to visualize code at the top level. In fact, everyone does, we just don't have the time or willpower to recreate the visual layer for all our code. When that visual layer is built into the language, it saves everyone time, both in building and understanding. I don't think plain code is going away anytime soon, and it will always be an option, but I'd like to see more done in the visual top layer space, like Luna. It has a level of conciseness like fuctional programming that I enjoy. Almost like bringing back (Turing's?) finite state machines at a higher level. I suspect the problem to which you allude, the lack of pervasiveness of visual-based programming, has more to do with how many folks have implemented it successfully. You may not be aware, but Ab Initio runs in a lot of big enterprise software stacks. People trained in that software are proficient in building solutions quickly with little or no CS background. Jobs in that tool remain high salaried to this day. The company is quite secretive and only licenses/trains with certain consultancies.
  - ilaksh 9y ago
    But are those people programmers? I mean if you show a 'real' programmer those people doing their job, will they really think they are doing programming or software engineers? Are you sure that things like graphical ETL such as SSIS, graphical or automated reporting, and more generally database-oriented RAD tools are not actually fairly common?

Someone 9y ago

For the curious: that software is alive: https://www.abinitio.com/en https://www.abinitio.com/en. Aside: that's a surprisingly pleasant page for a tool aimed at the enterprise (you have to contact sales to get a price quote)