4 ms·

I think the reason for the denials is a change in the interpretation of the rules. ESTA used to be for short term visits for any reason. I think some people i

I think the reason for the denials is a change in the interpretation of the rules. ESTA used to be for short term visits for any reason. I think some people in CBP now interpret it to mean a short stay that is not "work" related. You can look up all the academics -- which were definitely covered by ESTA -- who have had issues because some people at the border were not sure on how to interpret them. They are not alone. Way back in 2007 or so (so before Trump, but after 9/11), I overheard a German visa officer tell an American that it was totally illegal for them to work if they just came as a visitor. He had to get a work visa and it was long and complicated. He had made the mistake of telling her that he planned to hop over to visit some clients. He then said something like "oh, ok, its not a work trip its just a vacation. Nevermind about the visa, good bye." and walked out. I think someone interpreted the conference as "work", and that is what lead to all this. I think they (whoever it is) should make it clear to the officers what the policy is, and I also think the policy should be that conferences and the like are covered by ESTA.

YZF 9y ago
The boundary between "business" as covered by B-1 visas and "work" can be fuzzy. If you are employed by a US company and you get paid by said company while in the US (i.e. you're not on vacation) then your trip can be interpreted as working in the US. It's not clear which Mozilla entity is Daniel's employer but I've seen similar situations. Companies that have a lot of international employees traveling to the US typically know what sort of papers or preparations need to happen to reduce the chance of these things. Another crazy example, if you own a house in the US but you're not permitted to work there, fixing your own house counts as work and could get you deported banned from entry. You have to hire someone else to fix it. Borders are stupid... And the US has been this way basically for ever. If anything I think they got a little better vs. e.g. 10 or 20 years ago. I used to work for a Canadian company that did a lot of business in the US and there was some time period (~15 years ago) where any company employee attempting to travel to the US had a lot of difficulty because those guys got it into their heads that the company was doing something funny. You can run into trouble in various other places in the world as well.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  Back when I worked for Mozilla, I often had to travel to the Toronto office for team meetings (most of the team I was on was remote). I always had to carry a letter to give to CBSA at the Canadian border, explaining the difference between Mozilla US and Mozilla Canada, that I was an employee of Mozilla US and would not be paid by Mozilla Canada, that I would not do any work for Mozilla Canada, and in fact (I loved this bit) that I would not be "working" (whatever that legal term meant) at all while in Canada, only attending meetings. We used to joke that we couldn't fix bugs while at those gatherings, since that would be work and put us in violation of what the letter said.
the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
> I overheard a German visa officer tell an American that it was totally illegal for them to work if they just came as a visitor. That can't be right. You are definitely allowed to work on a visa waiver in Austria and as far as I know it's the same in Germany if the company you work for applies for a permit. That is independently of the purpose of the visa. In Austria at least all visas do not permit you to seek employment ("labor market access") where as permits (usually called "titles") give you labor market access. The border crossing is then usually decoupled from the permit. For instance if you need a visa to enter Schengen you will need a Visa to cross and a title/permit to work. If you are visa exempt you only need the title/permit. A quick googling also suggests that is the case for Germany.
- germanier 9y ago
  No, the situation is different in Germany. You are not allowed to work under a visa waiver. The permit is something you personally apply for and not the company. Some time ago the permits regulating work and stay were unified so you only get issued one thing that contains everything. Some residence titles give you access to the whole labour market, some are coupled to a specific job, some don't allow you to work at all. There is a special exemption for US citizens (and some others) which allows them to apply for a residence permit after entering Germany on a waiver. Until it is granted, no work is allowed. The question though is whether "visiting clients" actually constitutes work. Just negotiating contracts does not, actually performing work there is (duh).
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    Ah. Interesting. That was decoupled in Austria and since we steal all the things from Germany I assumed it was the same there.
IshKebab 9y ago
The allowed business activities under the visa waiver program are: * consult with business associates * attend a scientific, educational, professional, or business convention or conference * attend short-term training (you may not be paid by any source in the United States with the exception of expenses incidental to your stay) * negotiate a contract Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-program.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-... Academic conferences are explicitly allowed. This sounds more like "consult with business associates" though which should still be allowed.

YZF 9y ago

The boundary between "business" as covered by B-1 visas and "work" can be fuzzy. If you are employed by a US company and you get paid by said company while in the US (i.e. you're not on vacation) then your trip can be interpreted as working in the US. It's not clear which Mozilla entity is Daniel's employer but I've seen similar situations. Companies that have a lot of international employees traveling to the US typically know what sort of papers or preparations need to happen to reduce the chance of these things. Another crazy example, if you own a house in the US but you're not permitted to work there, fixing your own house counts as work and could get you deported banned from entry. You have to hire someone else to fix it. Borders are stupid... And the US has been this way basically for ever. If anything I think they got a little better vs. e.g. 10 or 20 years ago. I used to work for a Canadian company that did a lot of business in the US and there was some time period (~15 years ago) where any company employee attempting to travel to the US had a lot of difficulty because those guys got it into their heads that the company was doing something funny. You can run into trouble in various other places in the world as well.

ubernostrum 9y ago
Back when I worked for Mozilla, I often had to travel to the Toronto office for team meetings (most of the team I was on was remote). I always had to carry a letter to give to CBSA at the Canadian border, explaining the difference between Mozilla US and Mozilla Canada, that I was an employee of Mozilla US and would not be paid by Mozilla Canada, that I would not do any work for Mozilla Canada, and in fact (I loved this bit) that I would not be "working" (whatever that legal term meant) at all while in Canada, only attending meetings. We used to joke that we couldn't fix bugs while at those gatherings, since that would be work and put us in violation of what the letter said.

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago

> I overheard a German visa officer tell an American that it was totally illegal for them to work if they just came as a visitor. That can't be right. You are definitely allowed to work on a visa waiver in Austria and as far as I know it's the same in Germany if the company you work for applies for a permit. That is independently of the purpose of the visa. In Austria at least all visas do not permit you to seek employment ("labor market access") where as permits (usually called "titles") give you labor market access. The border crossing is then usually decoupled from the permit. For instance if you need a visa to enter Schengen you will need a Visa to cross and a title/permit to work. If you are visa exempt you only need the title/permit. A quick googling also suggests that is the case for Germany.

germanier 9y ago
No, the situation is different in Germany. You are not allowed to work under a visa waiver. The permit is something you personally apply for and not the company. Some time ago the permits regulating work and stay were unified so you only get issued one thing that contains everything. Some residence titles give you access to the whole labour market, some are coupled to a specific job, some don't allow you to work at all. There is a special exemption for US citizens (and some others) which allows them to apply for a residence permit after entering Germany on a waiver. Until it is granted, no work is allowed. The question though is whether "visiting clients" actually constitutes work. Just negotiating contracts does not, actually performing work there is (duh).
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  Ah. Interesting. That was decoupled in Austria and since we steal all the things from Germany I assumed it was the same there.

IshKebab 9y ago

The allowed business activities under the visa waiver program are: * consult with business associates * attend a scientific, educational, professional, or business convention or conference * attend short-term training (you may not be paid by any source in the United States with the exception of expenses incidental to your stay) * negotiate a contract Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-program.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-... Academic conferences are explicitly allowed. This sounds more like "consult with business associates" though which should still be allowed.