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So I downvoted first, then decided to reverse to reply why I think what you're describing is exactly what we should not be doing (and what isn't being done in t

by roel_v 9y ago

So I downvoted first, then decided to reverse to reply why I think what you're describing is exactly what we should not be doing (and what isn't being done in this space, luckily). Early age computational thinking is not about using computers, like how to use various operating systems or setting up networks or what is a good password or things like that. When I talk to teachers/school administrators but also other parents they are all excited and give these things as examples of how the curriculum (at my kids' school) could be extended. I think this is because to them, that's 'advanced computing' so that's what children need to know. As to you - I presume since you're here that you work as a programmer, so in that sense you're kind of throwing off my theory... Either way, what is being done in this sort of programs, is teach elementary thinking skills. For many, you don't even need a computer. It's about the concept of breaking down a task into very small subtasks that you can describe exactly, without ambiguity, and while still covering corner cases. That is 'computational thinking', and it's so far removed from the everyday world of current adults (who are not at least somewhat programmers) that they usually have a very hard time even understanding what it's about. How you configure your internet connection is nothing like that, and such menial skills have no place in elementary school classrooms. There are only so many hours in each day, we need to make optimal use of them. Teaching these fundamental skills can be done e.g. using robots like Beebot or Cubetto or similar; using simple programming environments like Scratch; or on paper / in real life like getting someone to describe how to sort other children from small to large in a generic way (and having it play out in front of them); or with board games that incorporate elements of it. There's a lot of experimentation being done how to best teach these things, and the things you'd think of as the 'obvious' way is quite often wrong (for example, getting a 5 year old to drive a robot and introducing conditions and iterations is quite easy and can happen in a few hours; but usually they won't be able to generalize that knowledge. So you need to dress it up into something immersive, to 'soak' them into this way of thinking essentially, and not just a trick they know how to do).

watwut 9y ago
Do you know about some goods resources where one can learn more about these? I am asking because your comment makes impression of someone who already studied it or have experience.
yorwba 9y ago
> I think this is because to them, that's 'advanced computing' so that's what children need to know. I don't think anyone would suggest something they believe to be 'advanced computing' as part of elementary school education. Rather, I think they see these practical skills of interacting with computers and the internet as something useful directly related to their day-to-day lives, so that's why they think they are important. I do think that everyone who goes through the school system should take away at least some basic understanding of these directly applicable aspects of computing. And computational thinking? Compare it to mathematics: If I had to sum up mathematical thinking, I'd say that it's all about logical deduction, working your way from assumptions to the conclusion. But the maths curriculum is not directly focused on teaching that, the topics covered are more like simplified versions of applied maths problems, roughly ordered by decreasing probability of usefulness (most people will find some use for basic arithmetic, but even solving linear equations is quite unlikely). If the kids pick up mathematical thinking along the way, great, and they will have an easy time with the problems, but even those who get through by memorizing formulae will take away something useful. I think something similar will happen to computational thinking. Although teaching it to everyone is certainly a noble goal, I doubt that everyone will be able to fully generalize what they are taught. Lessons will have to be tangibly applicable for the students, so that even those who can only memorize the specific and not abstract into the general will have learned something useful, even if it is just a "menial" skill. Examples of such lessons might involve navigating the menu structure of some program, but then this is essentially tree-traversal, so you can talk about different ways to explore all available options, and "breaking down a task into small subtasks" could be practiced by describing how to move through the menu to perform some action and so on. The point being, you can do a lot of stuff that is related to some aspect of computational thinking, but even if the kids don't generalize what they learned, at least they can find specific items in a menu, and maybe even use hotkeys if they aren't doing it on a touchscreen.
qrybam 9y ago
> teach elementary thinking skills I couldn't agree more. The curriculum for our kids should be based around building the mental machinary that will enable intuitive, creative and analytic problem solving. Learning a specific language, or some specific design pattern / method seems a little backward to me; this knowledge can be layered on top of this way of thinking in later years. Focus on building the right hardware (brain) before writing the software for it (knowledge).
lordnacho 9y ago
Well my kid is in school, and already before first grade they're "programming" a teaching assistant in a robot suit. I think that's great, but like everything else in the list it's just superficial. You're not in school to become a programmer any more than you are to become a journalist or physicist. It's just an intro, and chances are a lot will be upturned when you're older. The thing is most of those things are practical skills that everyone is going to need. And just like when there people who couldn't read, there are now people who don't know what the little X in the top right corner of Excel does. Sure, school should teach you "elementary thinking skills" but a lot of what goes on is just practical. I also think not having those practical skills is going to demotivate people. How often do kids give up on something because of mundane reasons? If you're comfortable with using the machine, maybe you'll find it easier to persevere through tougher material. Ideally you'll pick up something useful as well as a reasonable idea of what lies down the line.

by roel_v 9y ago

watwut 9y ago

Do you know about some goods resources where one can learn more about these? I am asking because your comment makes impression of someone who already studied it or have experience.

yorwba 9y ago

> I think this is because to them, that's 'advanced computing' so that's what children need to know. I don't think anyone would suggest something they believe to be 'advanced computing' as part of elementary school education. Rather, I think they see these practical skills of interacting with computers and the internet as something useful directly related to their day-to-day lives, so that's why they think they are important. I do think that everyone who goes through the school system should take away at least some basic understanding of these directly applicable aspects of computing. And computational thinking? Compare it to mathematics: If I had to sum up mathematical thinking, I'd say that it's all about logical deduction, working your way from assumptions to the conclusion. But the maths curriculum is not directly focused on teaching that, the topics covered are more like simplified versions of applied maths problems, roughly ordered by decreasing probability of usefulness (most people will find some use for basic arithmetic, but even solving linear equations is quite unlikely). If the kids pick up mathematical thinking along the way, great, and they will have an easy time with the problems, but even those who get through by memorizing formulae will take away something useful. I think something similar will happen to computational thinking. Although teaching it to everyone is certainly a noble goal, I doubt that everyone will be able to fully generalize what they are taught. Lessons will have to be tangibly applicable for the students, so that even those who can only memorize the specific and not abstract into the general will have learned something useful, even if it is just a "menial" skill. Examples of such lessons might involve navigating the menu structure of some program, but then this is essentially tree-traversal, so you can talk about different ways to explore all available options, and "breaking down a task into small subtasks" could be practiced by describing how to move through the menu to perform some action and so on. The point being, you can do a lot of stuff that is related to some aspect of computational thinking, but even if the kids don't generalize what they learned, at least they can find specific items in a menu, and maybe even use hotkeys if they aren't doing it on a touchscreen.

qrybam 9y ago

> teach elementary thinking skills I couldn't agree more. The curriculum for our kids should be based around building the mental machinary that will enable intuitive, creative and analytic problem solving. Learning a specific language, or some specific design pattern / method seems a little backward to me; this knowledge can be layered on top of this way of thinking in later years. Focus on building the right hardware (brain) before writing the software for it (knowledge).

lordnacho 9y ago

Well my kid is in school, and already before first grade they're "programming" a teaching assistant in a robot suit. I think that's great, but like everything else in the list it's just superficial. You're not in school to become a programmer any more than you are to become a journalist or physicist. It's just an intro, and chances are a lot will be upturned when you're older. The thing is most of those things are practical skills that everyone is going to need. And just like when there people who couldn't read, there are now people who don't know what the little X in the top right corner of Excel does. Sure, school should teach you "elementary thinking skills" but a lot of what goes on is just practical. I also think not having those practical skills is going to demotivate people. How often do kids give up on something because of mundane reasons? If you're comfortable with using the machine, maybe you'll find it easier to persevere through tougher material. Ideally you'll pick up something useful as well as a reasonable idea of what lies down the line.