7 ms·

Brooklyn’s Latest Craze: Making Your Own Electric Grid

86 points by ohjeez 9y ago

gjem97 9y ago
I love the idea. I think microgrids make sense for a lot of applications. However, I don't see how the blockchain really fits in to it. At the end of the day, someone has to maintain the shared infrastructure: the wires that connect the homes in the microgrid, and presumably some hardware to manage connecting to the macrogrid. That organization a) needs to be funded somehow and b) is a logical central party for managing the flow of electrons and money.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Yeah, it really seems like a better application of a 'micro-grid' would be to provide alternative green electricity to your neighbors. Like okay, you have a bunch of solar panels and a battery bank. Why not let people plug in at a kiosk near the bank? At a micro scale, your neighbors could hook up a heavy-duty appliance cable or two to their houses. You could use RFID cards, magstrip cards, username/password, a web frontend, an app, etc for identification, metering, and billing. Sure you could accept cryptocurrency for account credits, but you could also accept cash or credit/debit. It's just another payment processor.
  - gjem97 9y ago
    Yes, for example I think this makes sense for apartment buildings and other communal living situations. I think it would make sense to do solar and/or CHP depending on regional weather.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Well, assuming the law lets you do that at all. In my European country, my uncle tried to do something similar (purchase a wind turbine and sell electricity to his village neighbors) and he discovered there's simply no legal way to sell electricity except to the main grid company.
bradleyjg 9y ago
The article is pretty light on details. It's unclear if there's any new physical infrastructure being put in place or if the "microgrid" is a financial overlay built on top of con-ed's wires. And I'm entirely unclear where exactly a blockchain fits into the architecture.
- JBReefer 9y ago
  Is this a pg-style submarine?
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  I don't think there's much substance, to read this. If anything it almost seems like this company is "Enron"-ing its way into a middle man rent collector role without doing much of note.
erentz 9y ago
Can someone explain how this works? It's not like they built a new grid in Brooklyn. I'm not sure why it's called a micro grid. Presumably if the house with the panels sends its excess into the regular grid they get credits or money for this from the local electricity utility. But to make this trading across the grid happen is there some market system that allows them to say, hey this electricity generated over here is bought by this consumer over here? If so that seems like it has nothing to do with block chain and is just an offering of the local utility and/or the energy market regulator. Actually, it kind of sounds like all this company is doing is being a middle man to collect money from customers who want to feel green without adding any value. (I may have this completely wrong, I am genuinely curious how this makes sense though.)
- lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
  It's an ETH coin scam. Swoop in, act as middle man, skim off the top of ever transaction, use puff pieces like this article to pump up the value of your coin, then cash out. As a rule, anytime "blockchain" shows up someplace where it makes no sense someone is pulling a scam somewhere.
  - twohlix_ 9y ago
    Especially with a centralized authority being LO3. I don't get the point of using a blockchain in this case, who is confirming the transacations? What is the incentive for confirmation? Also if LO3s customers are just buying from the grid, are they paying LO3 on top of what they pay their utility? If so what is the value added by LO3 at all?
    - nikanj 9y ago
      The value is added to LO3's shareholders, not the users. This is a common theme with companies nowadays.
    - azinman2 9y ago
      Right. Because if LO3 is the one who is auditing and moving money around, why do we need a Blockchain at all? Can’t a database they admin do the same thing?
philipodonnell 9y ago
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLsKQfjbYNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLsKQfjbYNg - "Right now the way the utility grid works, you don't know where your electrons come from and there isn't really a way for you to account that those electrons are making it to you, and no way to account for who touched the electrons on their way to you. That doesn't have to be the case." I may be cynical here but the problems described in the above either don't seem like problems or they don't actually solve them. I've never wondered "who touched my electrons". I've never thought "I wish I could audit my electric utility's transaction history through a blockchain". They talk in the article about about having backup power if the main grid goes down, but there's no new wiring here so it doesn't do that. I just have no idea what value this company provides other than a box that tells you who touched your electrons.
- maxaf 9y ago
  I think they're just working up to a business model whereby the company will sell bespoke artisanal hand-made organic gluten-free electrons.
  - josephorjoe 9y ago
    If they want to make it in Brooklyn, those electrons better be vegan and cold brewed with optional avocado.
    - brtt 9y ago
      waka waka waka may be confusing with the bay
- galdosdi 9y ago
  Electrons travel way slower than the energy they transfer. Also, the grid provides alternating current, so the electrons never travel more than a few inches. So if you want to know where your electrons come from, well, they all come from the wiring in your house.
  - 9y ago
IshKebab 9y ago
Blockchain! Blockchain! It's how you know something is a gimmick.
joshdance 9y ago
Love the idea of micro grids. Why does it need to use blockchain?
rglover 9y ago
Admittedly, I didn't read this yet but all I could think of when I read the title were hipsters dressing up like Nikola Tesla, accidentally electrocuting themselves.
rohanshah 9y ago
The article didn't really go into detail on how LO3 uses the blockchain as part of their technology, so this may be unrelated, but this podcast [1] better articulates some insight into on how the blockchain could be used to affect the energy sector, specifically the grid. [1] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/beyond-bitcoin-we-explain-how-blockchain-could-transform-the-energy-sector https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/beyond-bitcoin-...
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
I would live to sell my excess solar energy on the public markets for anything near retail costs. Currently PG&E has a sweetheart deal where they resell it for retail and pay me wholesale. That's approximately a 1000% markup. Not bad.
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  How is that a sweetheart deal? Would you be outraged if the local supermarket wouldn't buy eggs from you at retail price? How could they possibly stay in business if they were forced to pay their suppliers the same amount of money they charged their customers? Even wholesale is generous since actual suppliers they deal with voluntarily do things like guarantee certain availability and sell in bulk.
  - matt_wulfeck 9y ago
    If only the supermarket could resell eggs at a 1000% markup! That would mean a dozen of eggs only cost them 3 cents.
thebiglebrewski 9y ago
Just wanted to say as a Brooklyn resident: I know nobody doing this. So maybe not "the latest craze"? Cool idea though.
wolfgang42 9y ago
I think "where did my electrons come from" is a question that many environmentally conscious but not particularly technical people are asking. My parents got a letter from our power company about ESCOs and I wound up having to explain to my mother how a power grid works and how the generators put power in and we take power out, but not necessarily the same power that we purchased from them. (It seems a lot of people have trouble with the concept of fungible commodities in general, which is why the envelope budgeting method is so successful: it 'de-funges' the money and makes the budget a lot easier to think about.) It sounds like this company is taking advantage of this confusion to give their customers peace of mind about actually "knowing" where their electricity came from, instead of sending some money off to the power company and hoping they do what they said they would with it. To this they add some buzzwords like "blockchain" and "sharing economy" to make the company more interesting so it gets featured in news articles. There may be some actual technical merit in there, but it's very difficult to tell under the hype.
deegles 9y ago
Given how notoriously energy intensive it is to process a blockchain transaction, I wonder what the lower bound is for each transaction to use more energy than the solar panel outputs. Not sure how to do the math on that :)
- polskibus 9y ago
  Perhaps you were thinking about Bitcoin instead of blockchain? Blockchain doesn't have to rely on expensive mining, it's all matter of incentive structure. For a microgrid, fees and algos don't have to be that expensive.
  - deegles 9y ago
    I found an article saying they're working with ConsenSys, which uses Ethereum. Of course they might have an independent chain but that was my impression. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604227/blockchain-is-helping-to-build-a-new-kind-of-energy-grid/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604227/blockchain-is-help...

86 points by ohjeez 9y ago

I love the idea. I think microgrids make sense for a lot of applications. However, I don't see how the blockchain really fits in to it. At the end of the day, someone has to maintain the shared infrastructure: the wires that connect the homes in the microgrid, and presumably some hardware to manage connecting to the macrogrid. That organization a) needs to be funded somehow and b) is a logical central party for managing the flow of electrons and money.

leggomylibro 9y ago
Yeah, it really seems like a better application of a 'micro-grid' would be to provide alternative green electricity to your neighbors. Like okay, you have a bunch of solar panels and a battery bank. Why not let people plug in at a kiosk near the bank? At a micro scale, your neighbors could hook up a heavy-duty appliance cable or two to their houses. You could use RFID cards, magstrip cards, username/password, a web frontend, an app, etc for identification, metering, and billing. Sure you could accept cryptocurrency for account credits, but you could also accept cash or credit/debit. It's just another payment processor.
- gjem97 9y ago
  Yes, for example I think this makes sense for apartment buildings and other communal living situations. I think it would make sense to do solar and/or CHP depending on regional weather.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Well, assuming the law lets you do that at all. In my European country, my uncle tried to do something similar (purchase a wind turbine and sell electricity to his village neighbors) and he discovered there's simply no legal way to sell electricity except to the main grid company.

bradleyjg 9y ago

The article is pretty light on details. It's unclear if there's any new physical infrastructure being put in place or if the "microgrid" is a financial overlay built on top of con-ed's wires. And I'm entirely unclear where exactly a blockchain fits into the architecture.

JBReefer 9y ago
Is this a pg-style submarine?
FireBeyond 9y ago
I don't think there's much substance, to read this. If anything it almost seems like this company is "Enron"-ing its way into a middle man rent collector role without doing much of note.

erentz 9y ago

Can someone explain how this works? It's not like they built a new grid in Brooklyn. I'm not sure why it's called a micro grid. Presumably if the house with the panels sends its excess into the regular grid they get credits or money for this from the local electricity utility. But to make this trading across the grid happen is there some market system that allows them to say, hey this electricity generated over here is bought by this consumer over here? If so that seems like it has nothing to do with block chain and is just an offering of the local utility and/or the energy market regulator. Actually, it kind of sounds like all this company is doing is being a middle man to collect money from customers who want to feel green without adding any value. (I may have this completely wrong, I am genuinely curious how this makes sense though.)

lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
It's an ETH coin scam. Swoop in, act as middle man, skim off the top of ever transaction, use puff pieces like this article to pump up the value of your coin, then cash out. As a rule, anytime "blockchain" shows up someplace where it makes no sense someone is pulling a scam somewhere.
- twohlix_ 9y ago
  Especially with a centralized authority being LO3. I don't get the point of using a blockchain in this case, who is confirming the transacations? What is the incentive for confirmation? Also if LO3s customers are just buying from the grid, are they paying LO3 on top of what they pay their utility? If so what is the value added by LO3 at all?
  - nikanj 9y ago
    The value is added to LO3's shareholders, not the users. This is a common theme with companies nowadays.
  - azinman2 9y ago
    Right. Because if LO3 is the one who is auditing and moving money around, why do we need a Blockchain at all? Can’t a database they admin do the same thing?

philipodonnell 9y ago

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLsKQfjbYNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLsKQfjbYNg - "Right now the way the utility grid works, you don't know where your electrons come from and there isn't really a way for you to account that those electrons are making it to you, and no way to account for who touched the electrons on their way to you. That doesn't have to be the case." I may be cynical here but the problems described in the above either don't seem like problems or they don't actually solve them. I've never wondered "who touched my electrons". I've never thought "I wish I could audit my electric utility's transaction history through a blockchain". They talk in the article about about having backup power if the main grid goes down, but there's no new wiring here so it doesn't do that. I just have no idea what value this company provides other than a box that tells you who touched your electrons.

maxaf 9y ago
I think they're just working up to a business model whereby the company will sell bespoke artisanal hand-made organic gluten-free electrons.
- josephorjoe 9y ago
  If they want to make it in Brooklyn, those electrons better be vegan and cold brewed with optional avocado.
  - brtt 9y ago
    waka waka waka may be confusing with the bay
galdosdi 9y ago
Electrons travel way slower than the energy they transfer. Also, the grid provides alternating current, so the electrons never travel more than a few inches. So if you want to know where your electrons come from, well, they all come from the wiring in your house.
- 9y ago

IshKebab 9y ago

Blockchain! Blockchain! It's how you know something is a gimmick.

joshdance 9y ago

Love the idea of micro grids. Why does it need to use blockchain?

rglover 9y ago

Admittedly, I didn't read this yet but all I could think of when I read the title were hipsters dressing up like Nikola Tesla, accidentally electrocuting themselves.

rohanshah 9y ago

The article didn't really go into detail on how LO3 uses the blockchain as part of their technology, so this may be unrelated, but this podcast [1] better articulates some insight into on how the blockchain could be used to affect the energy sector, specifically the grid. [1] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/beyond-bitcoin-we-explain-how-blockchain-could-transform-the-energy-sector https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/beyond-bitcoin-...

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

I would live to sell my excess solar energy on the public markets for anything near retail costs. Currently PG&E has a sweetheart deal where they resell it for retail and pay me wholesale. That's approximately a 1000% markup. Not bad.

bradleyjg 9y ago
How is that a sweetheart deal? Would you be outraged if the local supermarket wouldn't buy eggs from you at retail price? How could they possibly stay in business if they were forced to pay their suppliers the same amount of money they charged their customers? Even wholesale is generous since actual suppliers they deal with voluntarily do things like guarantee certain availability and sell in bulk.
- matt_wulfeck 9y ago
  If only the supermarket could resell eggs at a 1000% markup! That would mean a dozen of eggs only cost them 3 cents.

thebiglebrewski 9y ago

Just wanted to say as a Brooklyn resident: I know nobody doing this. So maybe not "the latest craze"? Cool idea though.

wolfgang42 9y ago

I think "where did my electrons come from" is a question that many environmentally conscious but not particularly technical people are asking. My parents got a letter from our power company about ESCOs and I wound up having to explain to my mother how a power grid works and how the generators put power in and we take power out, but not necessarily the same power that we purchased from them. (It seems a lot of people have trouble with the concept of fungible commodities in general, which is why the envelope budgeting method is so successful: it 'de-funges' the money and makes the budget a lot easier to think about.) It sounds like this company is taking advantage of this confusion to give their customers peace of mind about actually "knowing" where their electricity came from, instead of sending some money off to the power company and hoping they do what they said they would with it. To this they add some buzzwords like "blockchain" and "sharing economy" to make the company more interesting so it gets featured in news articles. There may be some actual technical merit in there, but it's very difficult to tell under the hype.

deegles 9y ago

Given how notoriously energy intensive it is to process a blockchain transaction, I wonder what the lower bound is for each transaction to use more energy than the solar panel outputs. Not sure how to do the math on that :)

polskibus 9y ago
Perhaps you were thinking about Bitcoin instead of blockchain? Blockchain doesn't have to rely on expensive mining, it's all matter of incentive structure. For a microgrid, fees and algos don't have to be that expensive.
- deegles 9y ago
  I found an article saying they're working with ConsenSys, which uses Ethereum. Of course they might have an independent chain but that was my impression. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604227/blockchain-is-helping-to-build-a-new-kind-of-energy-grid/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604227/blockchain-is-help...