9 ms·

It seems like so much core functionality is hidden behind gestures and 3D-touch. What a change for the company that shunned even the right click for many years

It seems like so much core functionality is hidden behind gestures and 3D-touch. What a change for the company that shunned even the right click for many years because it hid functionality.

quink 9y ago
You mean the company that has you dragging disks into the trash for about three decades now?
- evv 9y ago
  Speaking of hidden features.. you can just use Cmd-e to eject a disk in finder.
  - fredoliveira 9y ago
    That's a keyboard shortcut, though. No way that is a hidden feature.
  - Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
    Ah, youngsters. It used to be the case that Cmd-E ejected, but you rarely wanted just to eject (i.e. just remove the disk from the Mac), usually you wanted to Put Away, and that was Cmd-Y. I miss System 7.
    - rhencke 9y ago
      Nostalgia's a funny thing though. Remember the 'bomb' dialog box with the reset button that didn't always work? Cooperative multitasking allowing apps to lock the computer? ...I miss it, too.
      - Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
        Very much. Having Tetris and MacWrite Pro open simultaneously would cause a bomb, every time. It genuinely did wonders for my productivity. I remember System 7.1 most for its purity of interface. Everything from 7.5 onwards seemed to be bolting on more bells and whistles in a faintly uncoordinated fashion, and OS X has continued that. 7.0/7.1 were simple, efficient and fast. Much of the featuritis in the last 25 years has been good, of course, but I would still kill to have the old Spatial Finder back.
        rhencke 9y ago
        If you hide the toolbar in the OS X finder, you can get Spatial Finder back (!). When the toolbar is hidden, double-clicking folders springs them open to new windows, and folder windows remember their position after closing them. If you turn on the Status Bar, when the toolbar is hidden, it hops up to the top of the window. Just like the old days. sniff
        copperx 9y ago
        So, you're saying that some people navigate deep folder hierarchies by creating a window for every level? That's just so ... messy.
        rhencke 9y ago
        Not as messy as you might think! Holding down 'alt' while navigating causes the previous window to close as you go along. It makes keeping the windows that you'd like to go back to very easy, instead of having to just hit 'back' or 'up' a lot to get back to where you wanted to go.
        Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
        Yep, I hide the toolbar all the time. But OS X has a habit of bringing it back randomly, often when you open a folder you've not visited before, or when you insert a removable volume. I wish there were a defaults switch I could use to kill it forever.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- seanwilson 9y ago
  I've always found installing apps on desktop completely unintuitive as well. You double-click a downloaded package, see a window containing the app icon (...why?), drag and drop the icon into your app folder usually with no feedback after then you have to manually launch the app e.g. using cmd+space. Why not just have a "do you want to install this app?" dialog when you click on the app file the app launches after?
  - sanbor 9y ago
    You can just open the app without installing it.
    - seanwilson 9y ago
      It's just not intuitive though is the point. You've already double clicked the app icon, now a window appears with the same icon that you have to double click again to launch it? I moved from Windows to Mac after a long time hearing about how great Apple usability was and I could never understand the logic behind the app install workflow.
      - thirdsun 9y ago
        So, I guess you also hate zip files too? You didn't double click the app icon - you double clicked the container that contains the app you are about to open or move/install to your apps folder. I think the drag and drop approach to installing apps is as easy as it gets.
        wor3q 9y ago
        And this awkwardness is why windows apps have installers instead of being distributed in zip files. Double click -> click install, way easier than dragging anything anywhere
        thirdsun 9y ago
        Frankly, I prefer the ability to install and, almost more importantly, uninstall apps via drag and drop. I understand, it depends on the software, but installers that have the potential to install all kinds of services and files in other places just feel less...clean. It often feels like an unnecessary deep intervention.
epistasis 9y ago
Can't completely agree there. Contextual menus by right-click (or ctrl-click) have been core since OS X came out in 2000. (I would distinguish between "core" meaning extremely useful and effective, as opposed to "essential" meaning the only possible way to accomplish a task. Right click is still not "essential," just very useful.) And back in the pre OS X days, tons of functionality was "hidden" with the option key. Things like saving the printer profile default were done by holding down option when clicking on the OK button. Again, not "essential" functionality, but very useful and known by those who had been using the system for years. I think this type of hidden, but not essential to use, functionality goes waaaaay back in the DNA of Mac.
- inetknght 9y ago
  Contextual menus were in Classic Mac OS since at least OS 8.0. If memory serves, there were also extensions (who remembers those?!) which provided them prior to 8.
  - epistasis 9y ago
    It's funny, I only ran Mac OS 9 for a few months while I waited for OS X, so I couldn't even remember if Class Mac OS utilized them! I also tried to search for how much NextStep used right-click contextual menus, but that's also something that's pretty difficult to find.
    - _acme 9y ago
      A right-click under NeXTSTEP brought up the full menu, which could also have sub-menus 'torn off' and pinned to the screen. The NeXTSTEP menu system was remarkably advanced and efficient.
- dceddia 9y ago
  Lots of magical things are still hidden behind modifier keys. Option-click the wifi icon: special diagnostics info Option-click the bluetooth icon: diagnostics info Shift-Option-click the bluetooth icon: debug menu Hold option while resizing a window: resize from both sides at once (see gif: https://twitter.com/dceddia/status/859518600931143680 https://twitter.com/dceddia/status/859518600931143680)
notadoc 9y ago
Even the smartest and most technically capable people I know are confused by 3D Touch, almost all of whom eventually turned it off. What is it for? Why is it better than an alternative or a long press? How does it make anything better or more intuitive? How is it predictable in any way? iOS has been consistently confusing and less intuitive ever since iOS 7, and iOS 10 and iOS 11 are only more so particularly the lock screens which are outright bizarre. They feel very much like they were built for designers, not for end users. Come to think of it, a lot of what Apple does today feels like it was built for their own designers and not for users. Removing critical ports, 3D Touch, endless dongles, confusing UI and UX, the Touch Bar, awful low travel keyboards, etc etc Apple used to pride itself in everything being obvious and everything just working as you would expect it to. Perhaps the biggest change in Apple post-Jobs is how that is missing.
- nsxwolf 9y ago
  I hate things that have a different function for long press vs. 3D touch. It wasn't until 3D touch came out that I noticed I had always been applying pressure during a long press, and that led to a lot of confusion. Still does.
- bennyg 9y ago
  3D touch on the keyboard to move the cursor around makes up for every grievance I ever had about it to begin with.
  - notadoc 9y ago
    I like that too, but how many users know about that? 0.5%? Is it obvious and intuitive?
    - rhinoceraptor 9y ago
      How many computer users can operate a command line interface? It's not obvious or intuitive but obviously very powerful.
      - 9y ago
jdminhbg 9y ago
> It seems like so much core functionality is hidden behind gestures and 3D-touch. There's no core functionality hidden behind 3D touch on the iPad, not least because the iPad doesn't have any 3D touch capability.
coldtea 9y ago
What change? First, Apple shunned right click because it was difficult (in early computing era 80s and early 90s) for the common user to use -- in tests few used it, and even today, even in Windows land, most common folk can't master it. Not because it "hid functionality". It was the inverse cause and effect actually: since Apple only had single-button mouse, they didn't want developers to make things only available in context menus, so they forced them to make them easily available for left button access. But the first consideration was how users interact with the mouse (and lack of right click skills in the average non computing savvy masses), not the hiding of functionality. They still offered control-click for right click and supported optional two button mice for advanced users since like forever. Second, regarding hiding functionality Apple has since forever had all kinds of hidden options in menus, only available when you open the menu and press Option/Alt or click Option/Alt somewhere -- and other such cases of advanced (but hidden) features. They never had an issue with having such hidden functionality, that you could use only once you knew it was there, meant for more advanced users.

It seems like so much core functionality is hidden behind gestures and 3D-touch. What a change for the company that shunned even the right click for many years because it hid functionality.

quink 9y ago

You mean the company that has you dragging disks into the trash for about three decades now?

evv 9y ago
Speaking of hidden features.. you can just use Cmd-e to eject a disk in finder.
- fredoliveira 9y ago
  That's a keyboard shortcut, though. No way that is a hidden feature.
- Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
  Ah, youngsters. It used to be the case that Cmd-E ejected, but you rarely wanted just to eject (i.e. just remove the disk from the Mac), usually you wanted to Put Away, and that was Cmd-Y. I miss System 7.
  - rhencke 9y ago
    Nostalgia's a funny thing though. Remember the 'bomb' dialog box with the reset button that didn't always work? Cooperative multitasking allowing apps to lock the computer? ...I miss it, too.
    - Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
      Very much. Having Tetris and MacWrite Pro open simultaneously would cause a bomb, every time. It genuinely did wonders for my productivity. I remember System 7.1 most for its purity of interface. Everything from 7.5 onwards seemed to be bolting on more bells and whistles in a faintly uncoordinated fashion, and OS X has continued that. 7.0/7.1 were simple, efficient and fast. Much of the featuritis in the last 25 years has been good, of course, but I would still kill to have the old Spatial Finder back.
      - rhencke 9y ago
        If you hide the toolbar in the OS X finder, you can get Spatial Finder back (!). When the toolbar is hidden, double-clicking folders springs them open to new windows, and folder windows remember their position after closing them. If you turn on the Status Bar, when the toolbar is hidden, it hops up to the top of the window. Just like the old days. sniff
        copperx 9y ago
        So, you're saying that some people navigate deep folder hierarchies by creating a window for every level? That's just so ... messy.
        rhencke 9y ago
        Not as messy as you might think! Holding down 'alt' while navigating causes the previous window to close as you go along. It makes keeping the windows that you'd like to go back to very easy, instead of having to just hit 'back' or 'up' a lot to get back to where you wanted to go.
        Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
        Yep, I hide the toolbar all the time. But OS X has a habit of bringing it back randomly, often when you open a folder you've not visited before, or when you insert a removable volume. I wish there were a defaults switch I could use to kill it forever.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
seanwilson 9y ago
I've always found installing apps on desktop completely unintuitive as well. You double-click a downloaded package, see a window containing the app icon (...why?), drag and drop the icon into your app folder usually with no feedback after then you have to manually launch the app e.g. using cmd+space. Why not just have a "do you want to install this app?" dialog when you click on the app file the app launches after?
- sanbor 9y ago
  You can just open the app without installing it.
  - seanwilson 9y ago
    It's just not intuitive though is the point. You've already double clicked the app icon, now a window appears with the same icon that you have to double click again to launch it? I moved from Windows to Mac after a long time hearing about how great Apple usability was and I could never understand the logic behind the app install workflow.
    - thirdsun 9y ago
      So, I guess you also hate zip files too? You didn't double click the app icon - you double clicked the container that contains the app you are about to open or move/install to your apps folder. I think the drag and drop approach to installing apps is as easy as it gets.
      - wor3q 9y ago
        And this awkwardness is why windows apps have installers instead of being distributed in zip files. Double click -> click install, way easier than dragging anything anywhere
        thirdsun 9y ago
        Frankly, I prefer the ability to install and, almost more importantly, uninstall apps via drag and drop. I understand, it depends on the software, but installers that have the potential to install all kinds of services and files in other places just feel less...clean. It often feels like an unnecessary deep intervention.

epistasis 9y ago

Can't completely agree there. Contextual menus by right-click (or ctrl-click) have been core since OS X came out in 2000. (I would distinguish between "core" meaning extremely useful and effective, as opposed to "essential" meaning the only possible way to accomplish a task. Right click is still not "essential," just very useful.) And back in the pre OS X days, tons of functionality was "hidden" with the option key. Things like saving the printer profile default were done by holding down option when clicking on the OK button. Again, not "essential" functionality, but very useful and known by those who had been using the system for years. I think this type of hidden, but not essential to use, functionality goes waaaaay back in the DNA of Mac.

inetknght 9y ago
Contextual menus were in Classic Mac OS since at least OS 8.0. If memory serves, there were also extensions (who remembers those?!) which provided them prior to 8.
- epistasis 9y ago
  It's funny, I only ran Mac OS 9 for a few months while I waited for OS X, so I couldn't even remember if Class Mac OS utilized them! I also tried to search for how much NextStep used right-click contextual menus, but that's also something that's pretty difficult to find.
  - _acme 9y ago
    A right-click under NeXTSTEP brought up the full menu, which could also have sub-menus 'torn off' and pinned to the screen. The NeXTSTEP menu system was remarkably advanced and efficient.
dceddia 9y ago
Lots of magical things are still hidden behind modifier keys. Option-click the wifi icon: special diagnostics info Option-click the bluetooth icon: diagnostics info Shift-Option-click the bluetooth icon: debug menu Hold option while resizing a window: resize from both sides at once (see gif: https://twitter.com/dceddia/status/859518600931143680 https://twitter.com/dceddia/status/859518600931143680)

notadoc 9y ago

Even the smartest and most technically capable people I know are confused by 3D Touch, almost all of whom eventually turned it off. What is it for? Why is it better than an alternative or a long press? How does it make anything better or more intuitive? How is it predictable in any way? iOS has been consistently confusing and less intuitive ever since iOS 7, and iOS 10 and iOS 11 are only more so particularly the lock screens which are outright bizarre. They feel very much like they were built for designers, not for end users. Come to think of it, a lot of what Apple does today feels like it was built for their own designers and not for users. Removing critical ports, 3D Touch, endless dongles, confusing UI and UX, the Touch Bar, awful low travel keyboards, etc etc Apple used to pride itself in everything being obvious and everything just working as you would expect it to. Perhaps the biggest change in Apple post-Jobs is how that is missing.

nsxwolf 9y ago
I hate things that have a different function for long press vs. 3D touch. It wasn't until 3D touch came out that I noticed I had always been applying pressure during a long press, and that led to a lot of confusion. Still does.
bennyg 9y ago
3D touch on the keyboard to move the cursor around makes up for every grievance I ever had about it to begin with.
- notadoc 9y ago
  I like that too, but how many users know about that? 0.5%? Is it obvious and intuitive?
  - rhinoceraptor 9y ago
    How many computer users can operate a command line interface? It's not obvious or intuitive but obviously very powerful.
    - 9y ago

jdminhbg 9y ago

> It seems like so much core functionality is hidden behind gestures and 3D-touch. There's no core functionality hidden behind 3D touch on the iPad, not least because the iPad doesn't have any 3D touch capability.

coldtea 9y ago

What change? First, Apple shunned right click because it was difficult (in early computing era 80s and early 90s) for the common user to use -- in tests few used it, and even today, even in Windows land, most common folk can't master it. Not because it "hid functionality". It was the inverse cause and effect actually: since Apple only had single-button mouse, they didn't want developers to make things only available in context menus, so they forced them to make them easily available for left button access. But the first consideration was how users interact with the mouse (and lack of right click skills in the average non computing savvy masses), not the hiding of functionality. They still offered control-click for right click and supported optional two button mice for advanced users since like forever. Second, regarding hiding functionality Apple has since forever had all kinds of hidden options in menus, only available when you open the menu and press Option/Alt or click Option/Alt somewhere -- and other such cases of advanced (but hidden) features. They never had an issue with having such hidden functionality, that you could use only once you knew it was there, meant for more advanced users.