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That’s a little like hearing what Brad Pitt got paid for his last movie and wondering why the producer didn’t instead hire Brad Pitman for scale. Oh you’ve nev

by mrshoe 16y ago

That’s a little like hearing what Brad Pitt got paid for his last movie and wondering why the producer didn’t instead hire Brad Pitman for scale. Oh you’ve never heard of Brad Pitman? You’re not familiar with his work? But you are familiar with Brad Pitt’s work, right? After all, he’s an experienced actor and producer with not one, but two, Academy Award nominations and a portfolio full of household names. Bzzzt. Horrible analogy. Brad Pitt isn't worth what he's worth because of his portfolio full of household names. He commands his rates because he is a household name. People will go see movies just because he's in them. He's not getting paid for talent, experience, or attractiveness. He's getting paid for his personal brand. That brand all but guarantees that the filmmakers will earn a handsome return on their investment. You, however, are an iPhone app developer. App purchasers have never heard of you. They will not turn out in droves to buy an app just because you worked on it.

ros3 16y ago
They might turn out in droves because he offered a $30,000 dollar prize for solving a puzzle in his app "Puzzlloto". Which has been pulled from the app store... http://puzzllotto.com/ http://puzzllotto.com/
petercooper 16y ago
He commands his rates because he is a household name. [..] You, however, are an iPhone app developer. App purchasers have never heard of you. They will not turn out in droves to buy an app just because you worked on it. I think his conclusion is wrong but the analogy is good. It's unnecessary to be literal with the term "household." Most of the world's top scientists, lawyers, and bankers aren't household names, yet they can command extremely high levels of respect and, often, grants or income due to being a "household name" in their field. I'm not arguing Mike is a "household name" amongst developers - he's not, IMHO - but there's no reason why a "household name" developer couldn't get the Brad Pitt treatment. John Carmack would have his arm bitten off if he were available at $1000/hr. Is Mike Lee the iPhone equivalent of John Carmack? No. If he were? His analogy seems OK to me.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  Interesting comparison you made too. Because for me, I respect Carmack a hell of a lot more than Mike Lee. And I suspect he's a much better programmer as well. And human being.
  - petercooper 16y ago
    I find it more interesting that you're using a blog post to judge the author's quality as a human being.
    - blasdel 16y ago
      To be fair, there's a long history of self-aggrandizing blog posts with which to judge him by.
      - petercooper 16y ago
        That still seems like an curious criterion with which to judge someone's humanity. Gary Vaynerchuk, DHH, Zed Shaw, and a lot of the people admired by many HNers are very self-aggrandizing. Sidenote: It seems that people like this have to deal with a trough on their way up where a lot of judgment gets thrown their way for their outgoing manner. If they hit it big, though, that seems to be quickly forgotten and everyone loves them. We've seen it with all of the above. Those who fail to cross the trough, end up forgotten.
        ErrantX 16y ago
        Zed, for example, is very much like that. In the other hand he produces lots if great code and ideas. That is why he earned respect.
    - mkramlich 16y ago
      Writing things on the Internet is part of human behavior. What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. The Internet is not some special place that is exempt from all normal expectations of conduct that otherwise hold in meatspace. Just as simply being part of a business enterprise does not exempt one from being judged as a human based on your behavior. Also note I said "suspect" not "knew for certain" or anything as extreme or decisive as that. Important distinction, and one I chose intentionally when picking that word. :P :)
grok2 16y ago
The analogy may not be exactly right, but your explanation also went off on a tangent. It is not the app purchasers who matter here -- it is the people who want to make apps (or finance the making of apps if you will). Just like the movie producers who will pay top-dollar for actors/directors/etc. if they are proven to make a product (the movie) that is successful (like he has been according to what he says). By claiming that he is charging a ridiculous per-hour rate, he is actually adding to this "stardom" :-).
jawn 16y ago
I agree. Brad Pitt earns what he does because of the amount of money his movies bring in. If Mike Lee can bring in enough monies for his clients to recoup his exorbitant hourly rate, more power to him. He should definitely tone down the ego and rhetoric a bit though.
- lsc 16y ago
  depends... If you are marketing to business people, it seems to be best to puff yourself up as much as possible. they eat that shit up, as far as I can tell. I bet his massive ego gets him some work. When marketing to technical people, the opposite seems to be the case. In my experience, it's best to say "Oh, I'm nothing" and then proceed to show or do something pretty cool. Adding in a few words like 'perhaps' or "I believe" can make your message come across much more positively when dealing with the technically focused, and can do the opposite when dealing with the business focused. (note, while "I think" or "some people believe" adds a touch of humility, "In my experience" can go either way. It can imply that you feel you have a great deal more experience in this area than the other people in the room, adding to confidence/arrogance, but it can also imply that what works for you might not work for others, making you seem less confrontational.) This is one of the things I find interesting about hacker news; it seems to be populated by people who are halfway between those two worldviews.
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  Why should he? Are you earning more / more successfully than him? No? Then why would you think your advice would be helpful? You shouldn't conflate "what I like" with "what works."
  - jawn 16y ago
    Perhaps because the post is off putting to readers and makes the guy come across like an asshole? Do not be an asshole is one of the first lessons of social interaction. It's a shame some people confuse confidence with being an asshole. Secondly, one need not be in a better position to make value judgements. I don't necessarily need to have ever played a game of basketball to tell you that Steve Nash is a better free throw shooter than Dennis Rodman. Just like I can tell you that being an asshole may discourage potential clients (i.e. readers). If you think it's just me that feels this way, I invite you to read the rest of the comments in this thread. Furthermore, I never qualified my statements to be indicative of what I like or what would work globally. Troll better please.
mkramlich 16y ago
But... he's a household name for some reason, right? There was some original core non-meta reason he became famous. I suspect the reason had to do with some combination of the following: women find him attractive, men admire him and/or want to be as cool as him, PLUS arguably he's actually a pretty decent actor given the right role/script.
- jbrennan 16y ago
  You can't beat Mickey O'Neil in Snatch.
- Samuel_Michon 16y ago
  Up until halfway into the third sentence I thought you were still talking about Mike Lee. My bad.
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    Good feedback! Rereading it I realize it may not have been clear I was referring to Brad Pitt. Too late for me to edit it though. My bad, actually. :)
jpcx01 16y ago
Would having "From the developer of Tap Tap Revenge and Delicious Monster" help sell additional copies on the App Store? Would it help get blog coverage within the tightly nit mac elites? I believe so.
- antidaily 16y ago
  Agreed. It's why they always start trailers with "From the people who brought you 'Knocked Up' and 'Get Him to the Greek'..."

by mrshoe 16y ago

ros3 16y ago

They might turn out in droves because he offered a $30,000 dollar prize for solving a puzzle in his app "Puzzlloto". Which has been pulled from the app store... http://puzzllotto.com/ http://puzzllotto.com/

petercooper 16y ago

He commands his rates because he is a household name. [..] You, however, are an iPhone app developer. App purchasers have never heard of you. They will not turn out in droves to buy an app just because you worked on it. I think his conclusion is wrong but the analogy is good. It's unnecessary to be literal with the term "household." Most of the world's top scientists, lawyers, and bankers aren't household names, yet they can command extremely high levels of respect and, often, grants or income due to being a "household name" in their field. I'm not arguing Mike is a "household name" amongst developers - he's not, IMHO - but there's no reason why a "household name" developer couldn't get the Brad Pitt treatment. John Carmack would have his arm bitten off if he were available at $1000/hr. Is Mike Lee the iPhone equivalent of John Carmack? No. If he were? His analogy seems OK to me.

mkramlich 16y ago
Interesting comparison you made too. Because for me, I respect Carmack a hell of a lot more than Mike Lee. And I suspect he's a much better programmer as well. And human being.
- petercooper 16y ago
  I find it more interesting that you're using a blog post to judge the author's quality as a human being.
  - blasdel 16y ago
    To be fair, there's a long history of self-aggrandizing blog posts with which to judge him by.
    - petercooper 16y ago
      That still seems like an curious criterion with which to judge someone's humanity. Gary Vaynerchuk, DHH, Zed Shaw, and a lot of the people admired by many HNers are very self-aggrandizing. Sidenote: It seems that people like this have to deal with a trough on their way up where a lot of judgment gets thrown their way for their outgoing manner. If they hit it big, though, that seems to be quickly forgotten and everyone loves them. We've seen it with all of the above. Those who fail to cross the trough, end up forgotten.
      - ErrantX 16y ago
        Zed, for example, is very much like that. In the other hand he produces lots if great code and ideas. That is why he earned respect.
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    Writing things on the Internet is part of human behavior. What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. The Internet is not some special place that is exempt from all normal expectations of conduct that otherwise hold in meatspace. Just as simply being part of a business enterprise does not exempt one from being judged as a human based on your behavior. Also note I said "suspect" not "knew for certain" or anything as extreme or decisive as that. Important distinction, and one I chose intentionally when picking that word. :P :)

grok2 16y ago

The analogy may not be exactly right, but your explanation also went off on a tangent. It is not the app purchasers who matter here -- it is the people who want to make apps (or finance the making of apps if you will). Just like the movie producers who will pay top-dollar for actors/directors/etc. if they are proven to make a product (the movie) that is successful (like he has been according to what he says). By claiming that he is charging a ridiculous per-hour rate, he is actually adding to this "stardom" :-).

jawn 16y ago

I agree. Brad Pitt earns what he does because of the amount of money his movies bring in. If Mike Lee can bring in enough monies for his clients to recoup his exorbitant hourly rate, more power to him. He should definitely tone down the ego and rhetoric a bit though.

lsc 16y ago
depends... If you are marketing to business people, it seems to be best to puff yourself up as much as possible. they eat that shit up, as far as I can tell. I bet his massive ego gets him some work. When marketing to technical people, the opposite seems to be the case. In my experience, it's best to say "Oh, I'm nothing" and then proceed to show or do something pretty cool. Adding in a few words like 'perhaps' or "I believe" can make your message come across much more positively when dealing with the technically focused, and can do the opposite when dealing with the business focused. (note, while "I think" or "some people believe" adds a touch of humility, "In my experience" can go either way. It can imply that you feel you have a great deal more experience in this area than the other people in the room, adding to confidence/arrogance, but it can also imply that what works for you might not work for others, making you seem less confrontational.) This is one of the things I find interesting about hacker news; it seems to be populated by people who are halfway between those two worldviews.
ahoyhere 16y ago
Why should he? Are you earning more / more successfully than him? No? Then why would you think your advice would be helpful? You shouldn't conflate "what I like" with "what works."
- jawn 16y ago
  Perhaps because the post is off putting to readers and makes the guy come across like an asshole? Do not be an asshole is one of the first lessons of social interaction. It's a shame some people confuse confidence with being an asshole. Secondly, one need not be in a better position to make value judgements. I don't necessarily need to have ever played a game of basketball to tell you that Steve Nash is a better free throw shooter than Dennis Rodman. Just like I can tell you that being an asshole may discourage potential clients (i.e. readers). If you think it's just me that feels this way, I invite you to read the rest of the comments in this thread. Furthermore, I never qualified my statements to be indicative of what I like or what would work globally. Troll better please.

mkramlich 16y ago

But... he's a household name for some reason, right? There was some original core non-meta reason he became famous. I suspect the reason had to do with some combination of the following: women find him attractive, men admire him and/or want to be as cool as him, PLUS arguably he's actually a pretty decent actor given the right role/script.

jbrennan 16y ago
You can't beat Mickey O'Neil in Snatch.
Samuel_Michon 16y ago
Up until halfway into the third sentence I thought you were still talking about Mike Lee. My bad.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  Good feedback! Rereading it I realize it may not have been clear I was referring to Brad Pitt. Too late for me to edit it though. My bad, actually. :)

jpcx01 16y ago

Would having "From the developer of Tap Tap Revenge and Delicious Monster" help sell additional copies on the App Store? Would it help get blog coverage within the tightly nit mac elites? I believe so.

antidaily 16y ago
Agreed. It's why they always start trailers with "From the people who brought you 'Knocked Up' and 'Get Him to the Greek'..."