6 ms·

I think this is highly relevant for the early stages of a product: Do you focus on retention or marketing? I'm developing a cross-platform file manager [1]. My

I think this is highly relevant for the early stages of a product: Do you focus on retention or marketing? I'm developing a cross-platform file manager [1]. My current problem is that even tough 20 people download it every day, only 2 use it more than once in the first week. Existing users ask me for 1000s of features. But the real problem I need to overcome for growth is that I lose so many first-time users. That's a problem with onboarding, not with features. I blogged about this [2]. [1]: https://fman.io https://fman.io [2]: https://fman.io/blog/desktop-app-funnel-optimization/ https://fman.io/blog/desktop-app-funnel-optimization/

annnnd 9y ago
Retention! Always focus on retention. If people keep using your product then you have product market fit. If they keep leaving - you have an uphill marketing battle.
- Retric 9y ago
  Another consideration is getting customers to come back is vastly easier sell when they liked your product. So, you retention over years can end up significantly longer than the average subscription length.
laumars 9y ago
Your issue is slightly different though. Candy Japan is a niche product which has been around for a while but is a subscription model. Where as your application is a new product but in a crowded market where almost all of the alternatives are free. So getting a high conversion is always going to be a tough sell.
- mherrmann 9y ago
  "New" is relative - 15 months. Regarding your other points: The situation is actually very similar to Sublime Text (which I aspire to): Yes the market is crowded but I see potential for innovation. And paid is the only sustainable way I see to make the project happen [1]. It's free to evaluate forever, just like ST. [1]: https://fman.io/blog/fmans-business-strategy/ https://fman.io/blog/fmans-business-strategy/
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    What in particular do you see as most innovative in your fman at the moment, or is that set for future developments. I'm curious too - I noticed that the Linux version is 20MB, seems relatively heavy, and I'm wondering why so much larger than the Win version? Most of the enhancement requests seem to be things [my preferred twin-pane fm] Krusader does (nix only I think, though you can put KDE over Windows it's not straightforward [or wasn't last I tried]). On Windows in the past I've used Total Commander. FWIW on the download page I think I'd ditch the link to "don't be a free user" and just put something like "please purchase a license or donate to allow us to make fman even better for you.". The linked page is messy and doesn't give a clear message to those not familiar with the issues at hand IMO. In the onboarding you stress to use the keyboard but the dialogs have to be next/close with the mouse; I hit enter assuming they were defaulted and it instead changed directory. Also, why ctrl+p and not something like <spacebar> or just p? or D and C for directory and command? Is that following a pattern from somewhere else, isn't ctrl+p usually print. Ctrl+l which is browser default for entering URL would make more sense to me. Last thing, ctrl+shift+p dialog puts too much space between command and shortcut making it a bit hard to track; if you want to keep the same width as the directory pop-up I'd recommend centre aligning (right align left column, and vice-versa). Installing plugins one at a time gets slow quickly, especially as almost all functions appear to be plugins. On restarting it says "press A button" it means "click A button on screen", I pressed <A> and nothing happened. HTH. For me it's too minimal at install and I don't like dark backgrounds. Good job though: it's fast and minimal in line with your "zen".
    - mherrmann 9y ago
      > The Linux version is 20MB, seems relatively heavy I don't think 20 MB is heavy and don't think it makes sense to spend time on reducing this size. It's much more important for the project to focus on eg. better onboarding and/or still missing basic features. The Win version is an online installer. That's why it's 1 MB. > What in particular do you see as most innovative in fman Integration of features from Sublime Text, like Ctrl+P for quickly jumping to directories or the Command Palette (Ctrl+Shift+P) for quickly discovering and invoking all features. > I hit enter assuming they were defaulted and it instead changed directory. That's very good feedback. You're right I should change this. Thanks! > Also, why ctrl+p That's the shortcut which Sublime Text uses. > Installing plugins one at a time gets slow quickly Sure but you don't have to do it very often. You're right it would be useful to be able to install several plugins at once; But there are bigger fish to fry atm. > On restarting it says "press A button" [...] I pressed <A> and nothing happened. It purposely requires you to use the mouse to make the nag screen a little more annoying, so you will get a license [1] Thanks for the feedback, M [1]: https://fman.io/buy https://fman.io/buy
jamespo 9y ago
Interesting project, if I were to buy a license would it cover all my installs across OSes?
- mherrmann 9y ago
  Yup!
gwbas1c 9y ago
What about a Kickstarter for popular feature requests? You could even throw in a complimentary license for sponsors who haven't purchased a license already.
robinjfisher 9y ago
Focus on retention. My app[1] is sticky in that once you're set up it's a bit of hassle to leave and even then you'd only likely do it at one point during the year. This makes long-term retention fairly easy and worth some up front time investment in accommodating specific requests. As an example, one new customer wanted a general "notes" page for each employee. Not hard to build, other customers might find it useful and they now have c. 250 employees on their account. Moving them to a different service is not simple. Interestingly, my longest-serving customer is also one of my first. They've been with me nearly six years. My LTV averages around £550 because of that stickiness. [1]https://leavetrackapp.com https://leavetrackapp.com
- mherrmann 9y ago
  That's a great idea for an app and it looks very nice. Congratulations. I assume it's generating enough income for you to work on it full time? You're right I should focus on retention.
  - robinjfisher 9y ago
    Thanks. Not quite enough for full-time and to be honest I've not invested the time or money in acquisition of customers. Looking to change that this year. Have tried Google ads previously with not much success so looking to target some HR-related sites to drive more valuable traffic.
tixocloud 9y ago
You'll have to see whether you're attracting the right first time users. Are they a fit for your product or are they just trying it out because they are curious? Your existing users can provide you with great insight on what value you're bringing to them. You're getting requests for 1000s of features but which ones are the ones that really matter? Which one can make the most impact at the current moment? It might be a case of just prioritizing the top 20 and validate their words before building.
- mherrmann 9y ago
  > You'll have to see whether you're attracting the right first time users. Also an interesting point. You're right. Maybe they are just curious. But even then, I might still try to convert them. My users can vote on features [1]. I know what the top 20 are. The problem is, the highest ones are difficult to implement. But as I said, I believe I first need to (still) improve onboarding. [1]: https://fman.io/issues https://fman.io/issues
Sapph 9y ago
Question: do you send new users an onboarding drip email sequence? This makes a huge difference in driving them to actively use it and upgrade later. Sequence: 1. Welcome email. 2 Educate them about the value of one major feature with screenshot(s) (what makes it better/easier than similar products). 3. Educate them about the value of another major feature with screenshot(s). 4. (Specific to your product since tons of existing users request features): Send an email listing the top 3 most frequently requested features and ask them to vote for (click on) one. This email increases user investment in your product and subtly reminds them about it. 5. Ask them to upgrade (buy a licence in your case). You can find templates of these emails here: http://www.artofemails.com/onboarding http://www.artofemails.com/onboarding Tools you can use to send this sequence: ActiveCampaign, ConvertKit, MailerLite Don't worry about possibly annoying some users with the onboarding sequence. The increase in number of users you'll convert will greatly outweigh the number you may potentially annoy (and they can 1-click unsubscribe anyway).
- mherrmann 9y ago
  Thank you for the good suggestion. I know it's a common practice for SaaS businesses. I'm not doing it (yet) because mine is a desktop app, which doesn't require you to leave your email address to get access to. In other words, I can't send out a drip sequence because I don't have my users' email addresses. In my niche, asking the user to supply his email address just so he can download is very uncommon. I'm afraid that it will annoy users. I am trying with a tutorial [1] first. If that doesn't work, asking for email and sending out a drip sequence as per your sequence is still an option. Thanks!

annnnd 9y ago

Retention! Always focus on retention. If people keep using your product then you have product market fit. If they keep leaving - you have an uphill marketing battle.

Retric 9y ago
Another consideration is getting customers to come back is vastly easier sell when they liked your product. So, you retention over years can end up significantly longer than the average subscription length.

laumars 9y ago

Your issue is slightly different though. Candy Japan is a niche product which has been around for a while but is a subscription model. Where as your application is a new product but in a crowded market where almost all of the alternatives are free. So getting a high conversion is always going to be a tough sell.

mherrmann 9y ago
"New" is relative - 15 months. Regarding your other points: The situation is actually very similar to Sublime Text (which I aspire to): Yes the market is crowded but I see potential for innovation. And paid is the only sustainable way I see to make the project happen [1]. It's free to evaluate forever, just like ST. [1]: https://fman.io/blog/fmans-business-strategy/ https://fman.io/blog/fmans-business-strategy/
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  What in particular do you see as most innovative in your fman at the moment, or is that set for future developments. I'm curious too - I noticed that the Linux version is 20MB, seems relatively heavy, and I'm wondering why so much larger than the Win version? Most of the enhancement requests seem to be things [my preferred twin-pane fm] Krusader does (nix only I think, though you can put KDE over Windows it's not straightforward [or wasn't last I tried]). On Windows in the past I've used Total Commander. FWIW on the download page I think I'd ditch the link to "don't be a free user" and just put something like "please purchase a license or donate to allow us to make fman even better for you.". The linked page is messy and doesn't give a clear message to those not familiar with the issues at hand IMO. In the onboarding you stress to use the keyboard but the dialogs have to be next/close with the mouse; I hit enter assuming they were defaulted and it instead changed directory. Also, why ctrl+p and not something like <spacebar> or just p? or D and C for directory and command? Is that following a pattern from somewhere else, isn't ctrl+p usually print. Ctrl+l which is browser default for entering URL would make more sense to me. Last thing, ctrl+shift+p dialog puts too much space between command and shortcut making it a bit hard to track; if you want to keep the same width as the directory pop-up I'd recommend centre aligning (right align left column, and vice-versa). Installing plugins one at a time gets slow quickly, especially as almost all functions appear to be plugins. On restarting it says "press A button" it means "click A button on screen", I pressed <A> and nothing happened. HTH. For me it's too minimal at install and I don't like dark backgrounds. Good job though: it's fast and minimal in line with your "zen".
  - mherrmann 9y ago
    > The Linux version is 20MB, seems relatively heavy I don't think 20 MB is heavy and don't think it makes sense to spend time on reducing this size. It's much more important for the project to focus on eg. better onboarding and/or still missing basic features. The Win version is an online installer. That's why it's 1 MB. > What in particular do you see as most innovative in fman Integration of features from Sublime Text, like Ctrl+P for quickly jumping to directories or the Command Palette (Ctrl+Shift+P) for quickly discovering and invoking all features. > I hit enter assuming they were defaulted and it instead changed directory. That's very good feedback. You're right I should change this. Thanks! > Also, why ctrl+p That's the shortcut which Sublime Text uses. > Installing plugins one at a time gets slow quickly Sure but you don't have to do it very often. You're right it would be useful to be able to install several plugins at once; But there are bigger fish to fry atm. > On restarting it says "press A button" [...] I pressed <A> and nothing happened. It purposely requires you to use the mouse to make the nag screen a little more annoying, so you will get a license [1] Thanks for the feedback, M [1]: https://fman.io/buy https://fman.io/buy

jamespo 9y ago

Interesting project, if I were to buy a license would it cover all my installs across OSes?

mherrmann 9y ago
Yup!

gwbas1c 9y ago

What about a Kickstarter for popular feature requests? You could even throw in a complimentary license for sponsors who haven't purchased a license already.

robinjfisher 9y ago

Focus on retention. My app[1] is sticky in that once you're set up it's a bit of hassle to leave and even then you'd only likely do it at one point during the year. This makes long-term retention fairly easy and worth some up front time investment in accommodating specific requests. As an example, one new customer wanted a general "notes" page for each employee. Not hard to build, other customers might find it useful and they now have c. 250 employees on their account. Moving them to a different service is not simple. Interestingly, my longest-serving customer is also one of my first. They've been with me nearly six years. My LTV averages around £550 because of that stickiness. [1]https://leavetrackapp.com https://leavetrackapp.com

mherrmann 9y ago
That's a great idea for an app and it looks very nice. Congratulations. I assume it's generating enough income for you to work on it full time? You're right I should focus on retention.
- robinjfisher 9y ago
  Thanks. Not quite enough for full-time and to be honest I've not invested the time or money in acquisition of customers. Looking to change that this year. Have tried Google ads previously with not much success so looking to target some HR-related sites to drive more valuable traffic.

tixocloud 9y ago

You'll have to see whether you're attracting the right first time users. Are they a fit for your product or are they just trying it out because they are curious? Your existing users can provide you with great insight on what value you're bringing to them. You're getting requests for 1000s of features but which ones are the ones that really matter? Which one can make the most impact at the current moment? It might be a case of just prioritizing the top 20 and validate their words before building.

mherrmann 9y ago
> You'll have to see whether you're attracting the right first time users. Also an interesting point. You're right. Maybe they are just curious. But even then, I might still try to convert them. My users can vote on features [1]. I know what the top 20 are. The problem is, the highest ones are difficult to implement. But as I said, I believe I first need to (still) improve onboarding. [1]: https://fman.io/issues https://fman.io/issues

Sapph 9y ago

Question: do you send new users an onboarding drip email sequence? This makes a huge difference in driving them to actively use it and upgrade later. Sequence: 1. Welcome email. 2 Educate them about the value of one major feature with screenshot(s) (what makes it better/easier than similar products). 3. Educate them about the value of another major feature with screenshot(s). 4. (Specific to your product since tons of existing users request features): Send an email listing the top 3 most frequently requested features and ask them to vote for (click on) one. This email increases user investment in your product and subtly reminds them about it. 5. Ask them to upgrade (buy a licence in your case). You can find templates of these emails here: http://www.artofemails.com/onboarding http://www.artofemails.com/onboarding Tools you can use to send this sequence: ActiveCampaign, ConvertKit, MailerLite Don't worry about possibly annoying some users with the onboarding sequence. The increase in number of users you'll convert will greatly outweigh the number you may potentially annoy (and they can 1-click unsubscribe anyway).

mherrmann 9y ago
Thank you for the good suggestion. I know it's a common practice for SaaS businesses. I'm not doing it (yet) because mine is a desktop app, which doesn't require you to leave your email address to get access to. In other words, I can't send out a drip sequence because I don't have my users' email addresses. In my niche, asking the user to supply his email address just so he can download is very uncommon. I'm afraid that it will annoy users. I am trying with a tutorial [1] first. If that doesn't work, asking for email and sending out a drip sequence as per your sequence is still an option. Thanks!